ninja or sulsa

[tellner]

No. That's not "vehemently attacking". That's just exposing a pretty obvious piece of BS. Elite specialized troops who work for free? No. Not happening. People need to eat. Their families need to eat. The organizations simply could not survive for any length of time otherwise. And make no mistake, it would be a full time job for those actively involved plus the people doing the training, keeping supplies maintained and so on.

I have no doubt that people variously known as sulsa existed. But that particular story is bogus.

And I'm very suspicious when anyone says "Our guys were just like theirs but even better and patriotic to boot." That goes double when "theirs" are already romanticized and fictionalized out of all recognition.

It has to be treated as myth not history.

 

[shesulsa]

Elite specialized troops who work for free? No. Not happening. People need to eat. Their families need to eat.

The non-military and some military hwarang were nobility and most were of higher society, hence they didn't really need a lot of money - though one can reasonably conclude certainly they enjoyed *some* recognition or appreciative pittance in one form or another.

 

[SageGhost83]

...Wow, ninja versus sulsa. Well, we now know that they both have one thing in common other than being shadow warriors - they are equally controversial and lend themselves to some pretty heated disagreements in internet forums :jediduel:. It is starting to turn into the ninjutsu area in here. Shesulsa, you gave the history that you were taught, and that is all that you can really do, unless you actually lived back then and can verify everything they did beyond the shadow of a doubt. Who knows if any of these *histories* are accurate - there is a lot nationalism and revisionism in the far east. Take a look at Japanese history books concerning WW2 to see what I mean, and that is one of the more obvious examples...Tellner, I agree - It is a little suspicious that the sulsa popped up out of nowhere after the japanese ninja craze, practice hwarangdo, and look just like japanese ninjas...I'm just saying, given the trend within KMA, it seems really suspicious. The truth behind the actual shadow warriors of korea is mostly lost in the sands of time by now. Research will probably reveal some things, but they would probably only give us a small part of the picture. It would still be fun, though (says the nerd in me ).

 

[zDom]

Hmm so if the BS is roughly equal on either side, then it becomes simple to answer: Sulsa!

because

Korean > Japanese

 

[SageGhost83]

Hmm so if the BS is roughly equal on either side, then it becomes simple to answer: Sulsa!

because

Korean > Japanese

:lfao:

 

[Doc_Jude]

Korean > Japanese

Well, they do have Sinanju...

 

[shesulsa]

Hmm so if the BS is roughly equal on either side, then it becomes simple to answer: Sulsa!

because

Korean > Japanese

:lol2:

 

[SageGhost83]

Well, some old dude is going to suddenly emerge from the Korean countryside and make claims that he is the last living descendant of and the foremost authority on the Sulsa (with no paperwork to back it up). Then he will randomly take in an American student and teach him the ways of Sulsa, and that American student will earn his black belt(s) and write many books that eager americans will gladly pick up to satiate their thirst for cool Sulsa stuff. Eventually the American will go his own way and teach his own brand of Modern Sulsado or whatever, and major home study courses will pop up all over the internet for people who want to become Sulsa in the comfort of their own homes. It will be called BUJINKWAN, and it will be the 90,000 year old art that captures the spirit of modern day Korea. Next, Bob Hubbard is going to create a new Sulsa room on the forums so that people can join MT just to get into nasty arguments with each other and get banned. The best part of all? After the BUJINKWAN is well established, it will turn around and claim that Hatsumi and the BUJINKAN copied them and are jealous of the Korean Martial Art. No wait, the Korean "Stealth" Martial Art, :lol:. They will even have their own Ashida Kim and claim that the original Ashida Kim copied the Korean version!!! There will be a Korean Rick Tew who creates his own overhyped version of American Sulsado, and there will be a Korean Frank Dux who will make millions of unverifiable claims. Good times, good times! (Btw, this was a joke, people! Don't go getting all offended by what was written here. It is called tongue-in-cheek).

 

[shesulsa]

Weirder things have happened. Oh ... wait ...

 

[Carol]

Well, some old dude is going to suddenly emerge from the Korean countryside and make claims that he is the last living descendant of and the foremost authority on the Sulsa (with no paperwork to back it up). Then he will randomly take in an American student and teach him the ways of Sulsa, and that American student will earn his black belt(s) and write many books that eager americans will gladly pick up to satiate their thirst for cool Sulsa stuff. Eventually the American will go his own way and teach his own brand of Modern Sulsado or whatever, and major home study courses will pop up all over the internet for people who want to become Sulsa in the comfort of their own homes. It will be called BUJINKWAN, and it will be the 90,000 year old art that captures the spirit of modern day Korea. Next, Bob Hubbard is going to create a new Sulsa room on the forums so that people can join MT just to get into nasty arguments with each other and get banned. The best part of all? After the BUJINKWAN is well established, it will turn around and claim that Hatsumi and the BUJINKAN copied them and are jealous of the Korean Martial Art. No wait, the Korean "Stealth" Martial Art, :lol:. They will even have their own Ashida Kim and claim that the original Ashida Kim copied the Korean version!!! There will be a Korean Rick Tew who creates his own overhyped version of American Sulsado, and there will be a Korean Frank Dux who will make millions of unverifiable claims. Good times, good times! (Btw, this was a joke, people! Don't go getting all offended by what was written here. It is called tongue-in-cheek).

Don't forget the movies and the Second Coming of Real Ultimate Power... :lfao:

 

[Omar B]

Yeah, lets start a new movie series, as opposed to American Ninja we can do american Sulsa!

 

[tellner]

All the laughter and "I'm being tongue in cheek" aside there is a bit of truth. Japan and China have long continuous martial traditions that allow modern styles to assert a connection to the past or the best of the past or the modern evolution of the Great Men of Old. There are a lot or ridiculous stories that often end up "...and that's why we are the true heirs of Shaolin". There's still been an unbroken process of evolution. Modern practitioners can claim a connection to older and presumably better days even if they have to do some vigorous hand waving.

Korea's was wiped out and had to be rebuilt from almost from scratch. That's why there's been such a huge lot of revisionist history and even more tenuous appeals to the glorious past. It doesn't mean that today's product is any better or worse than anyone else's. It does mean that the "traditional" styles' connections are tenuous at best and have to be viewed with extreme skepticism, especially given the Korean government's propensity to fabricate for purposes of nationalism. So a few ambiguous by the way references to a group a thousand years ago and a couple statues become a full blown unbroken Hwarang martial tradition that is bigger and better than anyone else's. Cave paintings "prove" that the government's martial art is 2000 years old. And so on.

Everyone does this kind of thing. Like I said, scratch official histories of a lot of Chinese martial arts and the shiny paint comes off. And don't get me started on the mythology of Southeast Asian martial arts. They all have to be looked at as creation myths, not factual accounts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

All the laughter and "I'm being tongue in cheek" aside there is a bit of truth. Japan and China have long continuous martial traditions that allow modern styles to assert a connection to the past or the best of the past or the modern evolution of the Great Men of Old. There are a lot or ridiculous stories that often end up "...and that's why we are the true heirs of Shaolin". There's still been an unbroken process of evolution. Modern practitioners can claim a connection to older and presumably better days even if they have to do some vigorous hand waving.

Korea's was wiped out and had to be rebuilt from almost from scratch. That's why there's been such a huge lot of revisionist history and even more tenuous appeals to the glorious past. It doesn't mean that today's product is any better or worse than anyone else's. It does mean that the "traditional" styles' connections are tenuous at best and have to be viewed with extreme skepticism, especially given the Korean government's propensity to fabricate for purposes of nationalism. So a few ambiguous by the way references to a group a thousand years ago and a couple statues become a full blown unbroken Hwarang martial tradition that is bigger and better than anyone else's. Cave paintings "prove" that the government's martial art is 2000 years old. And so on.

Everyone does this kind of thing. Like I said, scratch official histories of a lot of Chinese martial arts and the shiny paint comes off. And don't get me started on the mythology of Southeast Asian martial arts. They all have to be looked at as creation myths, not factual accounts.

tellner

I am sensing some hostility here toward Chinese martial arts, and this is not the first of your posts I have felt this.

I can claim lineage all the way back to Chen Wangting, but it does not mean a thing if I don't train.

I may even be able to claim lineage to Li Cunyi but that is absolutely silly because I do not train Xingyiquan any longer.

I can also claim lineage to whoever the big founder of TKD was too but it is equally as meaningless since I have not done TKD in years.

There are good and bad lineage claims and there are good and bad CMA practitioners and not all actually very few that truely train CMA claim lineage to Shaolin.

Hmmm maybe I could though I did do Long fist a few years ago.... but then that too would be extremely silly

Oh but wait... I can claim lineage to EVERYBODY in the CMA past... I train SANDA and it is kinda sorta an amalgam of them all (insert diabolical laughter here)

Point, lineage is nice to know in CMA and at times it is very good a showing up frauds (like the guy in England that claimed inside student status to a Chen family member for marketing purposes when in reality that Chen family member ONLY taught other Chen family members). Other than that it does not equate to skill nor is it really all that important.

 

[tellner]

Hostility towards Chinese martial arts? No, not at all. Hostility towards the human tendency to make up self-serving nonsense and pass it off as truth? Certainly. The Chinese are no more or less prone to it than anyone. And martial arts are more prone to it than many fields.

In this case I'm saying that the while the Chinese, Japanese and so on have that trait there is a clearer connection in those countries between the past and the present. One can make a case that many or most of the Chinese martial arts are descended from older styles in a more or less unbroken chain of evolution, transmission and recombination. People will make up stories that make their own personal stuff seem more important or more closely tied to a mythical Golden Age.

The thrust here is that it is easier for countries which have an uninterrupted chain of transmission. China is one of couple oldest, so it was mentioned as an example. Korea got vivisected, so its connections are more mythical and less concrete. I mentioned China, Japan and Southeast Asia and their martial arts' creation myths because it would be wrong to single out one country for something that's depressingly common everywhere.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hostility towards Chinese martial arts? No, not at all. Hostility towards the human tendency to make up self-serving nonsense and pass it off as truth? Certainly. The Chinese are no more or less prone to it than anyone. And martial arts are more prone to it than many fields.

In this case I'm saying that the while the Chinese, Japanese and so on have that trait there is a clearer connection in those countries between the past and the present. One can make a case that many or most of the Chinese martial arts are descended from older styles in a more or less unbroken chain of evolution, transmission and recombination. People will make up stories that make their own personal stuff seem more important or more closely tied to a mythical Golden Age.

The thrust here is that it is easier for countries which have an uninterrupted chain of transmission. China is one of couple oldest, so it was mentioned as an example. Korea got vivisected, so its connections are more mythical and less concrete. I mentioned China, Japan and Southeast Asia and their martial arts' creation myths because it would be wrong to single out one country for something that's depressingly common everywhere.

Well I’m still claiming lineage to Shaolin because the guy that taught it to me called it Shaolin Long Fist and was from China and grew up in Shandong Province and was born in Qufu where Confucius was born and Confucius was born in 551 BC. And Shaolin, according to the biographies of Eminent Monks (AD 645) by Dàoxuān, the Shaolin Monastery was built on the north side of Shaoshi, the western peak of Mount Song, one of the Sacred Mountains of China, by Emperor Xiaowen of the Northern Wei Dynasty sometime during the Tang Dynasty (618AD - 907AD). Mount Song (aka Song Shan) and is located in Henan province.

Now you see Henan and Shandong are right next to each other and since Shaolin comes after Confucius and it is likely, seeing as it is in China, that Confucius had some influence on Shaolin and since the sifu who taught this from me was actually born in Qufu as well I think he is likely the true lineage holder of Shaolin (even though he learned Shaolin Long Fist in a Physical Education University) since he was born in the same town as Confucius who predates Shaolin and it is just a hop, skip and a jump with a bit of a train ride and then another hop, skip, jog and a jump from Qufu to Shaolin...so I imagine now it is all clear to you.

I now understand what you were saying and agree.

 

[arnisador]

My mathematical lineage goes back through L. Euler to G. Leibniz.

The lineage game is fun, but pointless. It's like claiming that those from Japan are necessarily better at JMAs, etc. While knowing the culture and history can be helpful, it's no guarantee either way.

Anyway, I agree with the skepticism over the Sulsa, esp. with their appearance on the Western scene after the ninja craze started. But surely some objective historian in (or over) Korea knows the truth?

 

[SageGhost83]

My mathematical lineage goes back through L. Euler to G. Leibniz.

The lineage game is fun, but pointless. It's like claiming that those from Japan are necessarily better at JMAs, etc. While knowing the culture and history can be helpful, it's no guarantee either way.

Anyway, I agree with the skepticism over the Sulsa, esp. with their appearance on the Western scene after the ninja craze started. But surely some objective historian in (or over) Korea knows the truth?

Funny you say that. I always regarded lineage as more of a political phenomenon than an actual barometer of skill. It is not like you are actually going to be better or more skilled than someone else just because you belong to a certain lineage. Heck, I trained Wing Chun under Sifu Rod Hillegrass who was a student of Sifu Randy Williams who was a student of Bruce Lee, but that doesn't make me better than anyone in the MT community. Nothing wrong with knowing one's lineage. It's just that some people take it too far and turn it into a form of ego-masturbation.

 

[SageGhost83]

And don't forget about the Teenage Mutant Sulsa Tortoises, who were trained by a mouse named master blister. They must defeat the evil toe clan that is led by the Slicer and his ally from Dimension Y, Koring. They also have two animal henchmen - Lean wit it and Rock wit it. It is an original Korean cartoon that will appeal the hip youth and get people interested in Sulsado :lol2:.

 

[zDom]

It is equally absurd, however, to believe that just because the Japanese outlawed martial arts in Korea during their occupation that all martial art knowledge was lost.

"No, son, I will NOT teach you how to punch! It is against the law!"

No, there isn't any documentation, and some of the stories of "secret training" are downright silly ...

but do you REALLY believe that ALL indigeneous martial art knowledge vanished from the peninsula during the occupation?

 

[Omar B]

They didnt stop anything, they just trained in my backyard for a few years.