New to Martial Arts

[Yokozuna514]

I would agree with these 3 with a caveat on the second. Of course, the teacher should be physically capable of doing what they ask the students to do. But, the instructor might have already taught classes earlier in the day, so I don't necessarily expect the head instructor to be doing pushups and situps along with the class every time.

We have an instructor in our school that is 58 and teaches multiple classes. People a 1/3 his age have a hard time keeping up. If I had a choice of schools to join and one had an instructor that would do every sit up/push up vs one that had to 'take a break' when he taught, I would pick the school that had the guy that did the work.

Sure, everyone can have an off day or be injured but all things created equally, that's the guy I want to learn from because he has a level of fitness and work ethic that I want to have when I am studying a MA.

 

[mrt2]

We have an instructor in our school that is 58 and teaches multiple classes. People a 1/3 his age have a hard time keeping up. If I had a choice of schools to join and one had an instructor that would do every sit up/push up vs one that had to 'take a break' when he taught, I would pick the school that had the guy that did the work.

Sure, everyone can have an off day or be injured but all things created equally, that's the guy I want to learn from because he has a level of fitness and work ethic that I want to have when I am studying a MA.

I thought the point of your original reply was to separate out the real martial arts masters from martial arts frauds, but you seem to be saying something completely different. There is fitness, there is martial arts knowledge and skill, and there is the ability to teach. While all 3 are important, the 2nd and 3rd are most important, while the 1st is less important. Why? Well, because it is not beyond the realm of possibility for a 25 year old 2nd Degree black belt to be much more fit than a 75 year old Grandmaster.

Put another way, if I sought out a Grandmaster and was fortunate enough to have someone like that teach me, I am not paying him to watch him do push ups and sit ups.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I thought the point of your original reply was to separate out the real martial arts masters from martial arts frauds, but you seem to be saying something completely different. There is fitness, there is martial arts knowledge and skill, and there is the ability to teach. While all 3 are important, the 2nd and 3rd are most important, while the 1st is less important. Why? Well, because it is not beyond the realm of possibility for a 25 year old 2nd Degree black belt to be much more fit than a 75 year old Grandmaster.

I acknowledge that the way the second point was offered originally can be construed to weed out the 'fraudsters' but I also think it is a valid point to ensure that the MA you are doing has a level of fitness requirement for the students as well as for the instructors. It not only displays the increased level of fitness from training but it demonstrates the work ethic.

Absolutely, 25 year old 2nd Degree BB can be much more fit than a 75 year old Grand Master. If I had a choice of schools where the head instructor was a fit 25 year old that did all the sit up and push ups vs a 75 year old that did all the sit up and push ups, I would probably go with the 75 year old Grand Master. If he can do that at his age, why couldn't I ?

It's a general flag but if you prefer not to subscribe to it I would respect your choice.

 

[mrt2]

I acknowledge that the way the second point was offered originally can be construed to weed out the 'fraudsters' but I also think it is a valid point to ensure that the MA you are doing has a level of fitness requirement for the students as well as for the instructors. It not only displays the increased level of fitness from training but it demonstrates the work ethic.

Absolutely, 25 year old 2nd Degree BB can be much more fit than a 75 year old Grand Master. If I had a choice of schools where the head instructor was a fit 25 year old that did all the sit up and push ups vs a 75 year old that did all the sit up and push ups, I would probably go with the 75 year old Grand Master. If he can do that at his age, why couldn't I ?

It's a general flag but if you prefer not to subscribe to it I would respect your choice.

It is easy to see if your school has a fitness requirement for its instructors, and especially its students. And if a large percentage of the intermediate or advanced students are out of shape, it is at least something to consider.

2nd generation instructors are getting increasingly rare. My old Tang Soo Do teacher must be in his late 70s now. I haven't seen him in over 30 years, but I imagine he isn't as fit as he was back when he taught me. (and for that matter, neither am I) That said, those who are fortunate enough to train with him probably don't care that he is likely 20% or even 30%less athletic than he was 30 or 40 years ago.

 

[Yokozuna514]

It is easy to see if your school has a fitness requirement for its instructors, and especially its students. And if a large percentage of the intermediate or advanced students are out of shape, it is at least something to consider.

2nd generation instructors are getting increasingly rare. My old Tang Soo Do teacher must be in his late 70s now. I haven't seen him in over 30 years, but I imagine he isn't as fit as he was back when he taught me. (and for that matter, neither am I) That said, those who are fortunate enough to train with him probably don't care that he is likely 20% or even 30%less athletic than he was 30 or 40 years ago.

We may feel differently about the 'fitness' requirements and that is fine by me. I think we both agree that fitness is important when taking a MA and for me that extension applies also to the instructor. It speaks to me about their work ethic. If your 70 old instructor gets down and does the work, even if it is not as much as I can do, I would still respect that he is asking people to do the work he is WILLING to do.

To me it is a large red flag when I see instructors who DO NOT do the work but want their students to do them as they 'count'. Sure it could be their 2nd or 3rd class but the message should be the same, do as I do, not only what I say. Chances are, if you have a guy that is willing to do the work he will teach you more than the fitness requirement. He will teach you to lead by example and not just because he has the 'rank'. The truth always comes out on the tatami. I have found this statement to ring true throughout the years but I acknowledge that others may feel differently. That is their journey not mine.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For what it’s worth, most of the boxing coaches I’ve seen don’t do exercises with their students. Their role is seen as providing guidance and feedback, not being a physical role model.

 

[Yokozuna514]

For what it’s worth, most of the boxing coaches I’ve seen don’t do exercises with their students. Their role is seen as providing guidance and feedback, not being a physical role model.

If folks do not mind that their teacher/coach/instructor is NOT doing the work they are being asked to do, that is their individual choice. The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.

I think it is a fair assumption when browsing for schools to have a preference for a guy or gal that puts their push ups where their mouth is but if he can teach you to be effective at the MA by just providing feedback and guidance........ok. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[mrt2]

We may feel differently about the 'fitness' requirements and that is fine by me. I think we both agree that fitness is important when taking a MA and for me that extension applies also to the instructor. It speaks to me about their work ethic. If your 70 old instructor gets down and does the work, even if it is not as much as I can do, I would still respect that he is asking people to do the work he is WILLING to do.

To me it is a large red flag when I see instructors who DO NOT do the work but want their students to do them as they 'count'. Sure it could be their 2nd or 3rd class but the message should be the same, do as I do, not only what I say. Chances are, if you have a guy that is willing to do the work he will teach you more than the fitness requirement. He will teach you to lead by example and not just because he has the 'rank'. The truth always comes out on the tatami. I have found this statement to ring true throughout the years but I acknowledge that others may feel differently. That is their journey not mine.

At risk of beating a dead horse, back in my old Tang Soo Do days, the head instructor wasn't even there for the physical fitness part. That was done by the next highest ranking person at the dojang. Might have been an assistant instructor, or even just a high ranking student. My current head teacher does do the entire class, though he does not do the pushups with the class, though I have no doubt he could do them easily.

 

[oftheherd1]

For what it’s worth, most of the boxing coaches I’ve seen don’t do exercises with their students. Their role is seen as providing guidance and feedback, not being a physical role model.

In the Hapkido I studied, my GM had arthritis. There were things he could not do well. But teaching he could do very well. He did not do exercises with us or any of the other classes he gave in a day. But he surely knew all the techniques an 8th Dan GM was supposed to and he could teach them well.

From the few GMs I have seen, they don't need the physical prowess of we younger students. They do the techniques so effortlessly and yet so effectively, they don't need the physical stamina, just the profound knowledge of the techniques.

 

[mrt2]

If folks do not mind that their teacher/coach/instructor is NOT doing the work they are being asked to do, that is their individual choice. The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.

I think it is a fair assumption when browsing for schools to have a preference for a guy or gal that puts their push ups where their mouth is but if he can teach you to be effective at the MA by just providing feedback and guidance........ok. Different strokes for different folks.

I would say it depends. If watching your head instructor do push ups is motivating for you, then I suppose that is fair. I disagree. Motivation comes from all kinds of places. I know my head instructor can do all the techniques he is teaching me, but. Sometimes he does all the techniques along with the class, sometimes he observes and gives feedback and guidance. Sometimes the feedback is gentle or mildly encouraging, other times more critical.

BTW, my old instructor almost never warmed up the class himself, yet the reverence his students had for him was off the charts. He demonstrated techniques in class, and occasionally at martial arts demos that was off the charts compared to what the next highest ranking instructor was able to do. IMO, way more motivating than doing pushups.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If folks do not mind that their teacher/coach/instructor is NOT doing the work they are being asked to do, that is their individual choice. The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.

I think it is a fair assumption when browsing for schools to have a preference for a guy or gal that puts their push ups where their mouth is but if he can teach you to be effective at the MA by just providing feedback and guidance........ok. Different strokes for different folks.

Do you prefer your instructors to participate in the technical drills, or watch how you are doing them and motivate you/correct your form? To me it is the same thing; if the instructor is doing pushups with me, he will not be able to tell me if i am slacking, or if my butt is up too high, or some other issue. I assume he does his own workout outside of class, just like i assume he practices his own techniques outside of class.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I would say it depends. If watching your head instructor do push ups is motivating for you, then I suppose that is fair. I disagree. Motivation comes from all kinds of places. I know my head instructor can do all the techniques he is teaching me, but. Sometimes he does all the techniques along with the class, sometimes he observes and gives feedback and guidance. Sometimes the feedback is gentle or mildly encouraging, other times more critical.

BTW, my old instructor almost never warmed up the class himself, yet the reverence his students had for him was off the charts. He demonstrated techniques in class, and occasionally at martial arts demos that was off the charts compared to what the next highest ranking instructor was able to do. IMO, way more motivating than doing pushups.

I understand the loyalty and the reverence you have for your instructor. We have no issue, believe me. My comment is not about just being able to do push ups but the work ethic behind the instructor 'willing' to do the push ups. If you feel like my comments are denigrating your head instructor, that is not what I had meant at all.

I am from a Kyokushin background so in our style and dojo, the ability to do the work is highly prized over someone that can only explain how to do something. I find it inspirational that a 58 year old can out work kids a 1/3 his age. It makes me feel that if he can do it, so can I. I also think this way of thinking is a fairly good indicator that the time, energy, effort and money I am going to spend can be seen through the students when I look around the room. Then again, that is what I seek and how I choose to select where I train. I acknowledge others may use other criteria but it may be more difficult to spot the fraudsters without this metric. My two cents.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Do you prefer your instructors to participate in the technical drills, or watch how you are doing them and motivate you/correct your form? To me it is the same thing; if the instructor is doing pushups with me, he will not be able to tell me if i am slacking, or if my butt is up too high, or some other issue. I assume he does his own workout outside of class, just like i assume he practices his own techniques outside of class.

I would hope they would be able to do both. As much as we are leading the class (instructing) we are also training as well. There are times to correct form and there are times to just do the work. I am sure there are tons of examples of people that cannot or will not or find a reason to not do the push ups. Again, if people do not mind that their instructors are pushing them to their limits and are not willing to do the work themselves, that is their choice. I think it makes the weeding out of McDojos more difficult but hey that's me. I look for a school and instructors that fit the mindset of what I think is valuable. That doesn't mean that I am going to an MA school to learn how to do push ups. I am going to an MA school that will allow me to surround myself with people that are not only CAPABLE and WILLING to do the work but are willing to be ROLE MODELS for me to follow.

I accept there are others that do not feel the same way about this. I wish them well in their training.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would hope they would be able to do both. As much as we are leading the class (instructing) we are also training as well. There are times to correct form and there are times to just do the work. I am sure there are tons of examples of people that cannot or will not or find a reason to not do the push ups. Again, if people do not mind that their instructors are pushing them to their limits and are not willing to do the work themselves, that is their choice. I think it makes the weeding out of McDojos more difficult but hey that's me. I look for a school and instructors that fit the mindset of what I think is valuable. That doesn't mean that I am going to an MA school to learn how to do push ups. I am going to an MA school that will allow me to surround myself with people that are not only CAPABLE and WILLING to do the work and are willing to be ROLE MODELS for me to follow.

I accept there are others that do not feel the same way about this. I wish them well in their training.

Yup, two different reasons for being there, so two different things we're looking for. I go specifically to learn and train, so I would rather the senseis spending their time teaching me, in the same way if I went to a math class, I wouldn't care if the teacher did the math problems. If I wanted someone to be a role model for me, I wouldn't look to a teacher in exactly the same way, so I would be looking for a different dojo. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Rule of thumb; if there aren't any gloves , shinguards or headgear in the gym you are probably wasting your time if you want something functional.

Eh, I would disagree with this. A lot of schools have those things, but then do almost no-contact, or have rules so limiting you're not getting something functional anyway. Meanwhile other schools do bare-knuckle sparring, or have headgear optional, but teach functional martial arts and have functional sparring. I prefer using no gear whatsoever, which has lead to a fair share of bruises.

I'd rather look at the level of compliance and the sparring ruleset to determine if something is functional or not.

 

[Martial D]

Eh, I would disagree with this. A lot of schools have those things, but then do almost no-contact, or have rules so limiting you're not getting something functional anyway. Meanwhile other schools do bare-knuckle sparring, or have headgear optional, but teach functional martial arts and have functional sparring. I prefer using no gear whatsoever, which has lead to a fair share of bruises.

I'd rather look at the level of compliance and the sparring ruleset to determine if something is functional or not.

Meh. All cars that can start have working engines, but not all cars that won't start don't have working engines.

IE yes, sparring doesn't guarantee good training, but a lack of it guarantees you are LARPing.

As for the second bit, I would just as soon pan the place that puts it's students in harm's way in such a reckless fashion as letting them fight without gear as I would the place that doesn't have them sparring at all. Sooner in fact.. not sparring at all leaves you without any real applicable skill, but it beats being completely reckless to the point you won't be able to train at all due to injury.

Sure, you can sort of hit people and pretend spar without gear, but it isn't the real thing. And if it is, it's certainly no place for learners.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Meh. All cars that can start have working engines, but not all cars that won't start don't have working engines.

IE yes, sparring doesn't guarantee good training, but a lack of it guarantees you are LARPing.

As for the second bit, I would just as soon pan the place that puts it's students in harm's way in such a reckless fashion as letting them fight without gear as I would the place that doesn't have them sparring at all. Sooner in fact.. not sparring at all leaves you without any real applicable skill, but it beats being completely reckless to the point you won't be able to train at all due to injury.

Sure, you can sort of hit people and pretend spar without gear, but it isn't the real thing. And if it is, it's certainly no place for learners.

I agree with the first part. For the second, headgear doesn't protect you all that much; IIRC, headgear can actually hurt you more than help. Gloves help protect your fists, but doesn't really lesson the damage that you do to the other person by a significant amount, especially if you're not going full power. And if you punch properly, the chances of breaking your fist/wrist is a lot lower than people seem to think.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Meh. All cars that can start have working engines, but not all cars that won't start don't have working engines.

IE yes, sparring doesn't guarantee good training, but a lack of it guarantees you are LARPing.

As for the second bit, I would just as soon pan the place that puts it's students in harm's way in such a reckless fashion as letting them fight without gear as I would the place that doesn't have them sparring at all. Sooner in fact.. not sparring at all leaves you without any real applicable skill, but it beats being completely reckless to the point you won't be able to train at all due to injury.

Sure, you can sort of hit people and pretend spar without gear, but it isn't the real thing. And if it is, it's certainly no place for learners.

I'm also assuming this is all for striking schools...with grappling the gear needed changes. Don't need headgear or shinguards, but I would recommend a cup and mouthpiece (same as striking) anyway. Maybe wrestling shoes and some tape, depending on the person.

 

[Yokozuna514]

but it beats being completely reckless to the point you won't be able to train at all due to injury.

Sure, you can sort of hit people and pretend spar without gear, but it isn't the real thing. And if it is, it's certainly no place for learners.

I am going to have to disagree with you here. Most people from a Kyokushin background would not find this to be true. In fact we would find the experience completely the opposite. That being said Kyokushin may not be for everyone.

 

[Martial D]

I agree with the first part. For the second, headgear doesn't protect you all that much; IIRC, headgear can actually hurt you more than help. Gloves help protect your fists, but doesn't really lesson the damage that you do to the other person by a significant amount, especially if you're not going full power. And if you punch properly, the chances of breaking your fist/wrist is a lot lower than people seem to think.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't do a lot of hard sparring. The difference between getting hit with a 16 oz glove and a bare fist aren't even the same universe.

Unless you are talking about heavilly regulated no headshot sparring or stop after one point style sparring, in which case going no gear is pretty common.

To clarify I'm talking about full continuous sparring with striking and grappling, or full continuous striking only sparring.