nee info about swords and swords martial arts

[Manny]

Well, first let me introdoce myself, My nick is Manny I am a 1sta dan tae kwon do black belt and orange belt in Kenpo Karate, never trained in kobudo so I know nothing about training with weapons, I am interested in learning the use of the sword, basically the katana, however don't know waht kind of Martial Art I have to learn, kendo? iaido? also don't nkow what kind of soword I have to buy, the boken? or a real sword, I know thare are many kinds of doreds some are for show, other are for cutting test, offcourse I would like to own the real deal but don't now if a very sharp sword are ok for practicing. I am a newcomer in this so I need some guidance.

Manny

 

[jks9199]

Manny,
Check out what's available in your area. There are three basic approaches to Japanese swords (it gets more complicated if we look into other "brands" like Filipino, European, etc.) Kendo is basically a sport approach using armor and bamboo swords to represent something similar to a sword fight. Iaido or Iai is focused on drawing the sword into immediate cuts. (Sort of loosely similar to a quick draw firearms event.) Kenjutsu is fighting with the sword.

In terms of equipment to buy -- wait until you know what you're training in. Most will start you with a bokken, or wooden sword. In time, you may move onto a dull practice blade, and finally a live, sharpened blade. Your instructor should be able to guide you as to what you need when the time is appropriate. (Look at all the threads here on MT about buying a blade to see why you should hold off... Among other things, a good blade is expensive, and you'll waste money if you buy the wrong one. And possibly endanger yourself or others if you buy a cheap one!)

 

[Ken Morgan]

Manny thank you for asking, so many others seem to just “make up” kata or forms with a sword, most of which no swordsman worth his salt would ever do!

JKS has good advice. Each of the arts all have there pro’s and con’s. Ideally you will want to train in Kendo, Iaido, and Kenjutsu, though it is unlikely you will find all three under one roof or have the time to train in all three, so you need to find out what is near you.

This is the website for the Mexican Kendo federation. http://www.kendofmk.org.mx/
They are the umbrella organization for kendo, iaido, jodo and naginata. Find out what is nearby, and go for a visit.

In iaido you will use a bokken for your first three months or so, then move up to an iaito, (a dull practice sword), no one ever needs a real sword, but if you choose to get one, you’re looking at several years down the road.

 

[Haakon]

If you want to learn an art that focus on the sword and doesn't just include sword work (Aikido for example) you might try finding a Kenjutsu school. It's not a terribly popular art though so finding an instructor may be difficult. If I were going to try and focus on the sword this is the style I would look for.

Also as JKS said, I would wait until you find somewhere to train before spending money on a bokken or especially katana and see what your new instructor recommends

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Manny,

Let's see if we can give a decent overview here, shall we? By the way, most of this info is in the stickies on this section, but we'll go through it here anyway.

Essentially, if we are talking Japanese Sword Arts, there's a few basic categories: Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, and what I'm going to call Integrated Systems (systems that teach sword within their curriculum, although not as a focus). Let's start.

Kendo is a relatively modern sporting approach to Japanese Swordsmanship. It involves a split bamboo sword (called a shinai), and primarily consists of competitive training in which you learn the strikes that score points in matches, which are conducted with both combatants wearing a form of armour, known as bogu.

There are 8 legal strikes, to the left and right side of the body (do), to the left and right sides of the head (men, or yoko men), to the tops of the left and right wrists (kote), to the top of the head (men, or shomen), and a thrust to the throat (tsuki), all areas that are protected by the bogu. Besides the sporting side of things, you are also taught a series of kata, typically performed with bokken, although you may later use a metal sword, mainly for demonstrations that I have seen. This includes both long and short sword kata. Some schools may allow the use of two shinai in competition (known as Nito No Kendo, sometimes erroneously refered to as Nito Ryu and spoken of as Musashi's approach. It's not), although that is personal, and depends on the student as well as the school in question.

For this system you will need: Keikogi (uwagi, a training jacket), Hakama (wide-legged trousers), a Shinai (bamboo sword), Bogu (armour -that's where it gets expensive), and down the track a Bokken (long wooden sword) and a Kodachi Bokken (short wooden sword). Later you may want an Iaito or Shinken (we'll cover them in a moment).

Kenjutsu typically means a non-sporting approach. Believe it or not, there are modern forms of this as well, the most well known being Toshishiro Obata's Shinkendo system, and the Toyama Ryu (which Shinkendo is primarily based on), although the most common are the old arts (koryu). These range over a great list, including systems such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (Musashi's systems), Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (the school of the Tokugawa Shogun's teachers), Itto Ryu (the technical base for Kendo), and many many more. They range in approach greatly, having very large syllabus' or very small ones, depending on the system, and each getting across their own methods in their own unique way. These are not ewasy to describe, particularly if you have limited to no experience, the best is to visit any schools that may be around your area (if you are lucky enough to have a kenjutsu dojo near enough, that is...), and see for yourself. As Ken Morgan said here recently, many people are attracted to the sword arts because of their percieved "cool" factor, but few realise what is actually involved in getting any skill with them (thousands of repetitions of the same cuts and kata, over and over again, and so on).

For these systems, it will depend on the exact school you attend, but most will require you to get a Keikogi, Hakama, and Bokken. Some will also require a Kodachi Bokken, others will use a Fukuro Shinai (a bamboo sword cased in leather), and others will require an Iaito, Mogito, or Shinken. Still more may have specialist protective equipment, such as oversized gauntlets. A few may even request that you get a suit of Yoroi (traditional armour), but that is rare.

Iaido is a relatively modern solo sword art, focused around the drawing and resheathing of a sword. The "standard" version of Iaido is known as Seitei Iaido, which sometimes includes a further section known as Toho no Iai, a range of 5 Iai kata drawn from various koryu systems. Essentially, Iaido technique is broken down into 4 stages: Nukitsuke, Kiritsuke, Chiburi, Noto.

Nukitsuke is the action of drawing and cutting with the sword in one movement. This is followed by Kiritsuke, a follow-up cut/thrust/strike, or more. When the combat is finished, there is a symbolic/formal method of removing any blood or clinging particles from the blade, refered to as Chiburi (literally "blood shake"), which takes any of a number of forms depending on the techinque/system. Probably the best known (and what most think of when they think of Chiburi) is O Chiburi, a Big Chiburi, taken from the Omori Ryu. These kata are always performed solo.

Equipment for Iaido is Hakama, and a different form of Uwagi (jacket), although some schools may allow both uniforms to be worn. The expence here is the sword itself. You will often start with a bokken, however an Iaito will be needed (at least) pretty soon, and then probably a Shinken later on. The differences between an Iaito, Mogito, and Shinken is pretty simple. An Iaito is a metal bladed sword made from a zinc-aluminium alloy, which gives it a fairly close feel to a real sword, but it cannot take an edge, or stand up to contact. This makes it fairly safe for Iaido. A Mogito and a Shinken are steel swords, with the primary difference being that a Mogito is not sharpened (although you can sharpen it later on, as it will take an edge), and a Shinken (literally Real Sword) is sharp to the point of a razor, making it far more dangerous to use.

There are also a range of Iai systems which may use the term Iaido, Iaijutsu, Batto, Battojutsu, or just Iai, and may be more modern (such as Muso Shinden Ryu), or older (such as it's sister system of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu). These may be very similar to modern Iaido (as these two are), or rather different (such as Tatsumi Ryu Iai).

Integrated systems teach sword within their syllabus', although they may not necessarily focus on it as a primary weapon. Schools that teach a range of weapons and do focus on the sword tend to be koryu systems such as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Tatsumi Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, and many others. Systems that include sword in their syllabus but don't necessarily focus on it include Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo (which includes Kasumi Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu), Yoshin Ryu Naginatajutsu, Kiraku Ryu Jujutsu, Jikishinkage Ryu Naginatajutsu, Negishi Ryu Shurikenjutsu, and many more. There are also systems such as the various Ninjutsu-related organisations (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and legit off-shoots), which include sword from the Kukishinden Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Koto Ryu, and others within their teachings. While the Genbukan and Jinenkan will be fairly uniform across all schools (the Jinenkan features the Jinen Ryu, founded by Manaka Unsui, and focused on Sword, Nito [two swords], and Jutte, while the Genbukan actually ranks seperately in Bikenjutsu), with the Bujinkan it is pretty much up to the instructor in question as to how much they integrate sword into their teachings. And none of these will be likely to just teach you sword by itself.

Another skill involved in the practice of swordsmanship, focused on greatly by some (Toyama Ryu, Shinkendo), and almost completely ignored by others (Niten Ichi Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu) is Tameshigiri, or test cutting. This is cutting done to a prepared target, often a soaked tatami mat wrapped around bamboo, although substitutes are sometimes used as well.

But the bottom line here is one definate piece of information. If you want to learn any swordsmanship you will need an experienced teacher. There is no other way. So if you are interested in learning Japanese swordsmanship (or any kind, really), the first thing to do is find out what is nearby, and then visit as many as you can. Each individual school will often be able to help you out with whatever equipment they require you to get, listen to what they say in terms of the equipment. For example, if you end up with Niten Ichi Ryu, they use a highly specialised type of bokken, and regular ones simply aren't suited to it's practice, so if you were to go out and just get a regular one yourself, you may have just wasted your time and money. The most embarrassment I have heard of in these arts usually involves a student going out and buying a sword without consulting their instructor first, only to discover (usually when proudly showing it for the first time) that it was not necessarily an ideal purchase....

But an instructor should come before anything else here. Did that help?

EDIT: Hmm, a few got in while I was typing... er, what they said.

 

[Aikicomp]

As usual, Chris and Ken nailed it down in their customary "meat and potatoes style". There is little I can add.

In the style I practice, Muso Shinden Ryu, we learn Oomori Ryu, Shindo Munen Ryu, Keshi Ryu, Seitei Iai and a little of Mugai Ryu in the Shoden levels.

In the Chuden and Okuden levels I think we practice mostly Hasakawa Eishin Ryu (Chris or Ken please correct me if I'm wrong in content or spelling).

I was told by my Sensei to purchase both an Iaito and a Bokken before I began classes (in the interim I used a Dojo Iaito) as we would be using both. I also had to buy the uniform ie; Hakama, keiko and Obi.

After training for about 3 yrs. I tested and received my Shodan and two yrs. later I purchased a Shinken. However, when using my Shinken I'm REALLY aware of my Noto, Sayabiki and my Nukitsuke.

Michael

 

[Chris Parker]

(Just because you asked so nicely....)

Muso Shinden Ryu is a more modern varient of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, with both it and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu splitting after the death of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu's 11th Head, Oguro Motoemon, originally simply being Shimomura-ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and Tanimura-ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu respectively.

Muso Shinden is made up of various levels, the Shoden is primarily from the Omori Ryu (with one extra, unique kata for Muso Shinden), the Chuden from the original Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, the Okuden refers to it's curriculum as Okuiai, and the techniques were previouly refered to as Shigenobu Ryu or Hayashizaki Ryu, a system who date themselves back to the man credited with the Iai concept, Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu (there still exists a more "pure" form of his system, refered to as Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu Iaijutsu as well).

Muso Shinden Ryu itself was formalised/restructured in it's present form by Nakayama Hakudo, 18th (and last) head of the Hasegawa Eishin Ryu proper. Since him, the Hasewawa Eishin Ryu ceased to exist, however it has been preserved (as you can see above) within the Muso Shinden and Muso Jikishinkage Eishin Ryu. It was formed in the early 20th Century, and Nakayama himself was instrumental in forming modern Iai (Seitei Iaido), however due to it's make-up of older systems it is often afforded the title of being a koryu system (even though Muso Shinden itself does not date back before the Meiji Restoration of 1868).

Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is more technically koryu, claiming an unbroken lineage from Hayashizuki Shigenobu, and often refered to simply as Eishin Ryu, even though there are sections which include kata developed later (such as some of the Kumitachi and Okuden set, amongst others).

 

[Manny]

I am very confused about the japanese termonology you use here, but well let me tell you I think kendo is an awesome sport however the thing I want to do is the use of the sword, I mean how to use it, learn how to darw the sord and cut with it, the way to use a katana against an oponent. I've been seen in some karate dojos where the senseis use the katana how they draw it and use it to make cuts and trusts and then resheat or reholstering the sword, don't know if this is iado.

It's true for parctice a live edge (razor sharp blade) is not necesary.

I've seen some videos on you tube were to peple square each other with their katanas and they draw them an try to cut heach other in coordination (uke and tori) so they intechance katana launches with cuts an trusts to then sheat their katanas, that's is what I wanto to do learn.

Any toughts?

Manny

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry about that, the last post was in reference to Aikicomp's post, and got a little technical and historical....

Drawing and resheating the blade would fall under the name Iai(do or jutsu), or in some cases Batto(or battojutsu, or rarely battodo). As said above it incorporates four aspects; drawing and cutting (nukitsuke), cutting with the sword already drawn (kiritsuke), shaking the blood from the blade (chiburi), and resheathing (noto). A small note here is that these terms are used in modern Iaido (Seitei Iaido), and some older systems use slightly different ones from time to time.

Bear in mind, though, that Iaido is most often performed solo, in fact most systems are only solo kata. Muso jikiden Eishin Ryu is an exception in that it incorporates paired kata at higher levels (and the Iai for Asayama Ichiden Ryu is completely paired as well, from memory). In schools such as Katori Shinto Ryu, out of the public art this is the only section where the kata are solo, rather than paired, and is taught in 3 sections, Iai (seated, from Tatehiza), Batto (standing, actually while walking), and a secret teaching of Iai held for practitioners only.

If you are after paired kata, the majority of systems will teach that with bokken (wooden swords), as steel can be rather too dangerous for learning, although they may use metal blades for demonstrations. The most important thing will be to find an experienced instructor, rather than a karate instructor who pulls a sword out every now and then. So your first step should be to look around your area, and let us know what you have available to you, then we can start to advise on your needs/desires.

 

[Wizard58]

I don't mean to be rude but I think you should study the history of the Samurai and Bujutsu in depth first. The sword is for killing not playing around with, I mean no disrespect for the sport. But it is the mind that needs training first. When I was practicing Kenpo, learning the Staff and the Katana were required to recieve our blue belt. But I am sure there are plenty here who can advise you on schools. I recommend personal training, one on one with the instructor, otherwise private instruction.

 

[Chris Parker]

While I agree that a sword is not really toy (in spite of my description of one of my own above), an "indepth study" of the samurai is not really required. If you were to undertake such a study, for instance, you may be a little shocked or surprised to learn that the sword was not the original primary weapon that defined the samurai, and that it was a secondary weapon at best on the battlefield. You may be further surprised to learn that although many classical systems focus their teachings around the use of a sword, it is a little doubtful that that was the main weapon in use at the time in question.

In a modern context, a sword is not a tool for killing, other than symbolically "killing" extraneous actions/thoughts/beliefs/values etc from yourself, and as such "polishing" yourself (this is what the spiritual aspect refers to). Basically, we don't go out killing people, so focusing on that use of the sword is a bit one-dimensional. I don't think that aspect of it should ever be forgotten, but it is not the primary concern in this day and age.

I mean no disrespect either, but if you learnt your swordsmanship from a Kenpo teacher (and I'm assuming by that we are refering to "fist method" rather than "sword method", as the word "ken" can be written with either character, just to keep things confusing!), then there may be a fair bit lacking from your swordsmanship as well in all honesty. Unless your teacher studied sword under someone who truly knows the weapon, that is, and in the case of karate-related systems (which most Kenpo schools are) that is rarely the case.

Personally, though, I'm not really sold on the idea of needing private tuition, it has as many problems as it has benefits. For example, I'm currently working with a gentleman who came from a fairly large school (koryu kenjutsu), moved to Australia, and now trains with me (as well as with an Iaido school). In the kenjutsu, it's just us, and he is constantly commenting on how with a variety of people (similar to the way he used to train) there were a large number of drills that they could go through that just don't work with only the two of us. We're getting to know each others rhythms really well, but a variety is not something that should have it's benefits ignored.

 

[kaizasosei]

Really excellent advice and knowledge posted above. A wealth of information like a beacon of light. Always a pleasure to learn things.

Just to add, a sword is just a tool like a stick. You have to really study the ways, observe all kinds of movements of self and others before you can reap the benefits of that aspect of the sword arts that are so classic mysterious and sublime.

I maintain that sword arts are very much about physics, logic and something nonphysical maybe soul or spirit- /fluid(a kind of mindfulness..). Stretch mind and body. Pointy end goes away from you.

In school i would practice all the time by myself with pencils. Other places with toothpicks. Funny but sometimes a bokuto feels like a toothpick to me.

If you have the luxury of tradition or not, just go at it, i say, observing closely anything or anybody that may be relevant. Observe your Karatesensei closely-watch how he pulls the sword and then watch others too. All ways have reasons though not all are perfectly reasonable for a given situation.

For japanese sword arts, you need to practice seiza. Iai from sitting=ashitanren the forging of the legs and feet. The tanden is the real world. People go to all kinds of places travelling, but the tanden is the only real place to move about in.





j

 

[Ken Morgan]

I am very confused about the japanese termonology you use here, but well let me tell you I think kendo is an awesome sport however the thing I want to do is the use of the sword, I mean how to use it, learn how to darw the sord and cut with it, the way to use a katana against an oponent. I've been seen in some karate dojos where the senseis use the katana how they draw it and use it to make cuts and trusts and then resheat or reholstering the sword, don't know if this is iado.

What you describe sounds like iaido. Do not go to a karate or TKD club to learn how to use the Japanese sword! Most of them do not have a clue as to what they are doing with a sword!

It is very hard to find trained instructors in any JSA, go to the Mexican Kendo Federation website I linked to earlier and see if there are any clubs in your area.

It's true for parctice a live edge (razor sharp blade) is not necesary.

Correct. I know people who have trained for more years then i and they have never used a sharp sword.

've seen some videos on you tube were to peple square each other with their katanas and they draw them an try to cut heach other in coordination (uke and tori) so they intechance katana launches with cuts an trusts to then sheat their katanas, that's is what I wanto to do learn.

There is no free sparing in kenjitsu, these are all paired kata. It is simply too dangerous to spar. All kenjitsu schools I have trained in and have seen use bokken, metal blades are too dangerous. Kenjitsu is about learning timing and distancing.

Any toughts?
Manny

1. Look up the Mexican Kendo Federation, find out what is in your area.
2. Iaido video's http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_video_download.html
3. Kenjitsu video (Niten-Ichi-ryu)

4. Kendo video

 

[Manny]

What you describe sounds like iaido. Do not go to a karate or TKD club to learn how to use the Japanese sword! Most of them do not have a clue as to what they are doing with a sword!

It is very hard to find trained instructors in any JSA, go to the Mexican Kendo Federation website I linked to earlier and see if there are any clubs in your area.



Correct. I know people who have trained for more years then i and they have never used a sharp sword.



There is no free sparing in kenjitsu, these are all paired kata. It is simply too dangerous to spar. All kenjitsu schools I have trained in and have seen use bokken, metal blades are too dangerous. Kenjitsu is about learning timing and distancing.



1. Look up the Mexican Kendo Federation, find out what is in your area.
2. Iaido video's http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_video_download.html
3. Kenjitsu video (Niten-Ichi-ryu)

4. Kendo video

Thank you and thank you all, I've seen the videos you gave me and now it's clear to me what I want to learn. I want to learn Iaido, I mena the draw of the sword following by the cut or trust then the sahke of the blade to clean the blood and then sheat the sword again.

For iaido I don't need a real katana (I mena one that has a razor edge) but I can use a dull steel one, this is importante to me cause I want to hled the closet thing to a real katana., and a woden one I really don't like it.

I know a dojo where kendo and iaido are taught in fact some weeks ago I wento there and they show me a very nice katana they told me it was for practicing, they told me it was made of aluminum and it has not edege but I was amazed of the quality of the metal and the construction because for me it was almost the real deal.

I will let you know my findings this is the dojo I have told you:

http://www.kendofmk.org.mx/Veracruz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=56

Manny

 

[Aikicomp]

(Just because you asked so nicely....)

Muso Shinden Ryu is a more modern varient of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, with both it and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu splitting after the death of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu's 11th Head, Oguro Motoemon, originally simply being Shimomura-ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and Tanimura-ha Hasegawa Eishin Ryu respectively.

Muso Shinden is made up of various levels, the Shoden is primarily from the Omori Ryu (with one extra, unique kata for Muso Shinden), the Chuden from the original Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, the Okuden refers to it's curriculum as Okuiai, and the techniques were previouly refered to as Shigenobu Ryu or Hayashizaki Ryu, a system who date themselves back to the man credited with the Iai concept, Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu (there still exists a more "pure" form of his system, refered to as Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu Iaijutsu as well).

Muso Shinden Ryu itself was formalised/restructured in it's present form by Nakayama Hakudo, 18th (and last) head of the Hasegawa Eishin Ryu proper. Since him, the Hasewawa Eishin Ryu ceased to exist, however it has been preserved (as you can see above) within the Muso Shinden and Muso Jikishinkage Eishin Ryu. It was formed in the early 20th Century, and Nakayama himself was instrumental in forming modern Iai (Seitei Iaido), however due to it's make-up of older systems it is often afforded the title of being a koryu system (even though Muso Shinden itself does not date back before the Meiji Restoration of 1868).

Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is more technically koryu, claiming an unbroken lineage from Hayashizuki Shigenobu, and often refered to simply as Eishin Ryu, even though there are sections which include kata developed later (such as some of the Kumitachi and Okuden set, amongst others).

As usual, straight to the point! Thanks Chris

Michael

 

[Supra Vijai]

There is no free sparing in kenjitsu, these are all paired kata. It is simply too dangerous to spar. All kenjitsu schools I have trained in and have seen use bokken, metal blades are too dangerous. Kenjitsu is about learning timing and distancing.

Far be it from me to question someone with your experience Ken but 3 typos in 4 sentences?

 

[Chris Parker]

(Ahem) Ken and I occasionally disagree (in a happy, friendly manner that still allows us both to be right in the morning....), but I hold him in the highest esteem. This is something that I let slide whereas I don't with others, as he more than demonstrates his experience and knowledge in these arts. When it comes to Ninjutsu, the incorrect spelling is far more a sign of someone that doesn't know the first thing, it's far more "loose" in other systems it seems. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Supra Vijai]

(Ahem) Ken and I occasionally disagree (in a happy, friendly manner that still allows us both to be right in the morning....), but I hold him in the highest esteem. This is something that I let slide whereas I don't with others, as he more than demonstrates his experience and knowledge in these arts. When it comes to Ninjutsu, the incorrect spelling is far more a sign of someone that doesn't know the first thing, it's far more "loose" in other systems it seems. I wouldn't worry about it.

Of course Sensei, I don't doubt his skill or experience in the slightest, I was just being pedantic on the jitsu/jutsu thing esp given it was spelt jutsu in an earlier post. No disrespect intended in the slightest

 

[Ken Morgan]

Lol.