Myth Busters

[Victor Smith]

Time for Myth Busters

1. Only the evil American's would ever wear tattered old obi.
2. Japanese JKA cannot move to be effective self defense.

Yahara Kata: Unsu
Clips from 1982-84 JKA All Japan Championships (Kata Finals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkoxYbMipkA

Note all of these Japanese JKA competitors are wearing tattered old
obi.

And my observation their movement potential for their Unsu kata
would surely work in any self defense situation. Frankly they're
very good.

So there you have it, another Myth busted!

 

[chinto]

Time for Myth Busters

1. Only the evil American's would ever wear tattered old obi.
2. Japanese JKA cannot move to be effective self defense.

Yahara Kata: Unsu
Clips from 1982-84 JKA All Japan Championships (Kata Finals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkoxYbMipkA

Note all of these Japanese JKA competitors are wearing tattered old
obi.

And my observation their movement potential for their Unsu kata
would surely work in any self defense situation. Frankly they're
very good.

So there you have it, another Myth busted!

I have to agree. I have seen and met more then one older karateka who is of an okinawan style who wore a "tatterd obi" and have and continued to visit Okinawa to train under extreemly senior senseis or even hanshi on okinawa wearing them.

 

[Andrew Green]

2. Japanese JKA cannot move to be effective self defense.

I think judging effectiveness based solely on solo kata performance is a wee bit of a stretch...

 

[Victor Smith]

Andrew,

And where does one look to judge effectiveness?

Those individuals were moving with great control and alignment. Not perfect, but effective in my experience.

You take your accumulated experiences training with good instructors, you take your accumulated experiences training your own students and you evaluate potential.

And that's where I draw my opinion.

pleasantly,

 

[Cirdan]

"Martial Arts progress from kata, to kumite, to combat"

Potential is good, but it gets you exactly nowhere if you don`t tap into it.

 

[tellner]

1. Plenty of people wear raggedy-*** belts. Japanese wash theirs new or old no matter how many times the "never wash your belt" myth is repeated
2. Nice forms although I think they were holding way too much tension. What exactly was this supposed to prove about how well they can fight?

 

[chinto]

I think judging effectiveness based solely on solo kata performance is a wee bit of a stretch...

yes and no. meany of the people who do martial arts and have done them for years have had the unfortunent experiance of being in a real confrentation. cant say for sure they have been in the case of the vidio, but i would say that there is a fairly good chance that they would be effective in combat if they were accosted.

 

[tellner]

I'm sorry, but I still don't buy it. Yes, they look strong. Yes, they have some precision and speed. But lots of people can look good moving around solo. The worst pro boxer looks great when he's shadowboxing or working the bag. In other words, the video clip doesn't even come close to proving what you say it does. Something to the opposite when you think about it. Are these actually the techniques these guys would use in a fight? I'd lay you plenty of six to five or even seven to ten that the answer is "No". If they're spending that much time perfecting what they don't use to fight it detracts from the stuff they'd really use.

 

[Victor Smith]

Thank you I understand the difference in our opinions.

Where I work with my students to use each and every nuance of our kata technique to drop people, and in turn when I see someone who's abilty to move is what I'm trying to develop in my students, my assumption is that they have the ablity to use what they're doing.

BTW this is a decades spanning study for my students.

Of course that's just an assumption on my part, and I can't prove those Unsu performers know how to use what they've developed, but it's so difficult to find someone who has developed themselvles to that ability my assumption is they are capable of using what they practice.

I see things that way because my instructors did and do the same. Ernest Rothrock in Tai Chi and Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (Northern Eagle Claw), Tristan Sutrisno (Shotokan, aikido, silat tjimande), the Late Sherman Harrill in his 40+ years work in Isshinryu, each in their different tradition work to utilize each movement to drop an attack.

It may be presumptious of me but that is what we work towards, with of course varyin degrees of success.

It is with that filter my decision is based.

 

[chinto]

Thank you I understand the difference in our opinions.

Where I work with my students to use each and every nuance of our kata technique to drop people, and in turn when I see someone who's abilty to move is what I'm trying to develop in my students, my assumption is that they have the ablity to use what they're doing.

BTW this is a decades spanning study for my students.

Of course that's just an assumption on my part, and I can't prove those Unsu performers know how to use what they've developed, but it's so difficult to find someone who has developed themselvles to that ability my assumption is they are capable of using what they practice.

I see things that way because my instructors did and do the same. Ernest Rothrock in Tai Chi and Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (Northern Eagle Claw), Tristan Sutrisno (Shotokan, aikido, silat tjimande), the Late Sherman Harrill in his 40+ years work in Isshinryu, each in their different tradition work to utilize each movement to drop an attack.

It may be presumptious of me but that is what we work towards, with of course varyin degrees of success.

It is with that filter my decision is based.

I have known some men who were exelent in kata, and I know for a fact are devestating in combat when accosted. I do not study shotokan or any of the japanese systems, but I do study an Okinawan system of Karate and can say that they would be and have been extreemly efficent and effective in combat when they have had the unfortunent experiance to need to use that trainig.
If all I have to judge by is their kata preformance, then I would go with the one who can do kata well. This may or may not be a dangerous assumption, as there is no garantee that they understand the aplications of what they have trained in. but, if they have trained for years and achieved the dan rank in any system ( or its equivelent) then I would say there is a better then 60% chance they will be more effective then some one who has not trained in a systemized combat training regemin. this does not mean there are not some dangerous thugs and others out there who have not trained in a system, but that if they trained in a traditional system that is not sporterized and optimized for sport type bouts, but retians the original system then it is efficent and effective in combat or it would not have survived. After all, survival and self defence is why martial arts system of both armed, and unarmed were developed.

 

[tshadowchaser]

The strength, power, speed, and precision of stance and technique within the form would all translate into a good fighting combination. Combine this with the years of experience the practitioner surly has to reach the rank he has and all the knowledge time and effort to be as good as he/they are plus all the techniques he/they most likely know from the form would say that the practitioner just might have a good chance in a fight. Nothing is ever positive but much can be surmised from the intensity and correctness of the form.

 

[chinto]

The strength, power, speed, and precision of stance and technique within the form would all translate into a good fighting combination. Combine this with the years of experience the practitioner surly has to reach the rank he has and all the knowledge time and effort to be as good as he/they are plus all the techniques he/they most likely know from the form would say that the practitioner just might have a good chance in a fight. Nothing is ever positive but much can be surmised from the intensity and correctness of the form.

I tend to agree very much with that statement!

 

[Can]

Note all of these Japanese JKA competitors are wearing tattered old
obi.

The key is "old obi". They weren't wrapped around a tree, sanded or any other nonsense like that. There are people who do that, and you can tell. The old obi don't have strings hanging from them like the belts of people who want to look more experienced than they are. The strings that dangle from the young phony's belt wore off the belt that's actually old.

 

[chinto]

The key is "old obi". They weren't wrapped around a tree, sanded or any other nonsense like that. There are people who do that, and you can tell. The old obi don't have strings hanging from them like the belts of people who want to look more experienced than they are. The strings that dangle from the young phony's belt wore off the belt that's actually old.

I have to say never seen one like that, but then my sensei has been wearing the same obi for about 12 or more years I think. there are indeed no loose threads hanging off it or any thing like that. its just woarn and turned mostly white as the black layers have woren away.

 

[Victor Smith]

When I first observed aged obi, about 35 years ago, they were ones that had been work so long the section of the obi where the knot was tied were just strings the belt having separated at that point, on some of them, and those obi were stone white too. Those who wore them in the mid 70's in the Penna, NJ, Md area were also the senior instructors with 15+ years in the arts at that time. (This was not everyone, but some of them).

My own obi after about 12 years of 5 to 7 days a week wearing began to have the belt separate on me, and greatly fade. My first obi was a cheap one. I replaced it with a better obi and now about 20 or so years later it's still looking black, but there is some fraying too.

People wear what they wear, but allowing a working obi to age and grow with one is not just a current custom.

Nor is it of much consequence.

The obi is a modern convenience in martial arts history and there is no logic that implies it will be worn very long in the future either.

 

[chinto]

When I first observed aged obi, about 35 years ago, they were ones that had been work so long the section of the obi where the knot was tied were just strings the belt having separated at that point, on some of them, and those obi were stone white too. Those who wore them in the mid 70's in the Penna, NJ, Md area were also the senior instructors with 15+ years in the arts at that time. (This was not everyone, but some of them).

My own obi after about 12 years of 5 to 7 days a week wearing began to have the belt separate on me, and greatly fade. My first obi was a cheap one. I replaced it with a better obi and now about 20 or so years later it's still looking black, but there is some fraying too.

People wear what they wear, but allowing a working obi to age and grow with one is not just a current custom.

Nor is it of much consequence.

The obi is a modern convenience in martial arts history and there is no logic that implies it will be worn very long in the future either.

well I know my sensei has been teaching for over 30 years, and I think its just a matter of the obi still does its job and is ok. Who knows he might replace it some day. but I also know that it is not uncomon for some one to wear their obi till they need to replace it becouse it is woren out.

 

[truth_seeker87]

In Ryukyu Kempo was pretty much don't wear our black belts after black belt. Yudansha normall wear Hakamas, however they are not as skirt like and more pant-like. Plus we don't have to do the big holding when we tie up our Hakama just fold it up.

 

[chinto]

In Ryukyu Kempo was pretty much don't wear our black belts after black belt. Yudansha normall wear Hakamas, however they are not as skirt like and more pant-like. Plus we don't have to do the big holding when we tie up our Hakama just fold it up.

interesting. ... the only time our black belts wear their hakama is when they are officiating at a testing...

 

[Ray B]

In Ryukyu Kempo was pretty much don't wear our black belts after black belt. Yudansha normall wear Hakamas, however they are not as skirt like and more pant-like. Plus we don't have to do the big holding when we tie up our Hakama just fold it up.

I always wondered about Oyata Sensei's hakama being different.
Can you tell us a little about it?

http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com/Hakama.htm

Thanks in advance.

 

[TEScott]

One thing I know about these is that they are called nobakama or field hakama. I don't know why Oyata Sensei settled on this particular style of clothing. It certainly gives a unique look. I think he even used to make them at one time a long time ago.