I just wanna lay it all out there what I have been feeling recently about my personal martial arts training. I wanna know the TRUTH about Steven K. Hayes and his teachings. What is the timeline that made the Bujinkan dislike him so much??? I have a problem. I live in Hawaii for now where there are no Quest Centers OR Bujinkan dojos. So for now I am training with the To-Shin Do Mountains of Strength curriculum. Well, I am not having the easiest time getting the stuff down with a partner. I am not a person with many friends that are willing to help me train. Ok, now I am moving to Tennessee in a few months where there is NOT a Quest Center, but there IS a Bujinkan dojo. I want to be able to do the SKH program and I really like it, but I can't afford to travel a lot and I can't just train with other people. I would also like to train at the Bujinkan dojo in my home town, but I have been told by that instructer that if I train with the Bujinkan I HAVE TO CUT ALL TIES WITH STEVEN K. HAYES!!! So I wanna know what SPECIFICALLY An-Shu Hayes has done or "lied" about to make me have to "cut all ties" in order to train with the Bujinkan??? Does anyone know a timeline of what happened or what documentation there is of Dr. Hatsumi saying he no longer supports SKH??? I know that SKH says he and Dr. Hatsumi are still in touch and train together, and the Bujinkan says he is on the "outside." So this leads me to believe one of three things:either the Bujinkan is lying, SKH is lying, or Dr. Hatsumi is lying to both sides and telling SKH it is all good while telling the Bujinkan that SKH is "out." So does anyone know the real story because I really need to know the TRUTH here. I really need to make a choice I guess so I need the info to make the right one. Crap this is getting long. Sorry all. I just wanna know the truth. Thanks.
My Inner Conflict...
- Thread starter Satt
- Start date
MrFunnieman
Yellow Belt
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2004
- Messages
- 57
- Reaction score
- 2
Satt,
I am not sure anyone really knows the TRUTH. Your third possibility of Hatsumi palying both sides of the fence may not be too far fetched. That, however, is my personal opinion. He does practice Ninjutsu. Truth in the guise of falsehood and falsehood in the guise of truth
Perhaps Hatsumi is testing Mr. Hayes perserverence?:idunno:
Who is instructing at the TN dojo? I know that Deaf offered Greg and Jenny Slayton. I do not know them well, but they trained at the Quest Center in Dayton for a time and when one of instructors struck out on his own they followed him. It was my impression that the instructor did not leave on good terms, but I do not know the Slayton's business. That instructor got licensed through the Bujinkan and now teaches Budo Taijutsu. Go figure. All the other debates over TSD and Bujinkan being so different...
If that is not the dojo you are talking about, then I have nothing more to offer on that point.
If you decide to train through Hayes I believe that you will receive a quality education. He is a good instructor and VERY knowledgeable. The tuition is pricey, but comparable to other martial artists of his notariety. The Dude has been on the cover of Black Belt magazine at least 10 times. They don't do that with just any Joe Schmoe. I know that is NOT indicitive of his skill, but he has been training, interpreting and studying the many aspects of Ninjutsu for close to thirty years. There's something to be said about that level of commitment.
Personally, my motives have changed and I think that I am going to pursue Aikido. The forums don't seem to be as dicey/spicy, but my motivation is not self-defense or wellrounded martial arts anymore. I like the idea of a soft art and the philosophical/spiritual emphasis that is more characteristic of Aikido.
I do at times feel that it is necessary to clear up some misunderstandings about Mr. Hayes or at least offer a fresh perspective on TSD. He and I weren't chummy, but I was active in front of and behind the scenes. I did not think that he was easy to work with on a professional level, but enjoyed being a student. I am sure that those that knew Hayes better in the past respect him enough to keep their personal problems between themselves and Mr. Hayes. There is a lot to be said about a personality differences. Mr. Hayes knows what he wants and is committed to creating his own reality. He is determined and disciplined. He has a successful school and takes a lot of flack because he is able to make a living out of something he loves. There may be things that he is monetarily motivated for doing, but who wouldn't? If he can charge more for classes and people are willing to pay it, then he is being economical. Supply and demand. I would suggest that Hatsumi saw a cash cow in awarding ranks past judan, sorry Bujin guys, but I truly believe that. Supply and demand.
Yours in Budo,
MrFunnieman
I am not sure anyone really knows the TRUTH. Your third possibility of Hatsumi palying both sides of the fence may not be too far fetched. That, however, is my personal opinion. He does practice Ninjutsu. Truth in the guise of falsehood and falsehood in the guise of truth
Perhaps Hatsumi is testing Mr. Hayes perserverence?:idunno:
Who is instructing at the TN dojo? I know that Deaf offered Greg and Jenny Slayton. I do not know them well, but they trained at the Quest Center in Dayton for a time and when one of instructors struck out on his own they followed him. It was my impression that the instructor did not leave on good terms, but I do not know the Slayton's business. That instructor got licensed through the Bujinkan and now teaches Budo Taijutsu. Go figure. All the other debates over TSD and Bujinkan being so different...
If that is not the dojo you are talking about, then I have nothing more to offer on that point.
If you decide to train through Hayes I believe that you will receive a quality education. He is a good instructor and VERY knowledgeable. The tuition is pricey, but comparable to other martial artists of his notariety. The Dude has been on the cover of Black Belt magazine at least 10 times. They don't do that with just any Joe Schmoe. I know that is NOT indicitive of his skill, but he has been training, interpreting and studying the many aspects of Ninjutsu for close to thirty years. There's something to be said about that level of commitment.
Personally, my motives have changed and I think that I am going to pursue Aikido. The forums don't seem to be as dicey/spicy, but my motivation is not self-defense or wellrounded martial arts anymore. I like the idea of a soft art and the philosophical/spiritual emphasis that is more characteristic of Aikido.
I do at times feel that it is necessary to clear up some misunderstandings about Mr. Hayes or at least offer a fresh perspective on TSD. He and I weren't chummy, but I was active in front of and behind the scenes. I did not think that he was easy to work with on a professional level, but enjoyed being a student. I am sure that those that knew Hayes better in the past respect him enough to keep their personal problems between themselves and Mr. Hayes. There is a lot to be said about a personality differences. Mr. Hayes knows what he wants and is committed to creating his own reality. He is determined and disciplined. He has a successful school and takes a lot of flack because he is able to make a living out of something he loves. There may be things that he is monetarily motivated for doing, but who wouldn't? If he can charge more for classes and people are willing to pay it, then he is being economical. Supply and demand. I would suggest that Hatsumi saw a cash cow in awarding ranks past judan, sorry Bujin guys, but I truly believe that. Supply and demand.
Yours in Budo,
MrFunnieman
The answer to your questions is not really best described on the internet.
If you turely want an answer, I would suggest you join a forum such as Kutaki.org, find out the people that seem to say that Hatsumi does not like SKH and privately e-mail them for a reason. There are many people on that forum that have mentioned that they have heard Hatsumi talk about Hayes. It would be best if you found out their side of the story and then the other side.
I should point out that Japanese do not tend to blast people in public. They can be very polite when faced with someone they dislike. This makes it hard to tell what is going on without a bit of knowledge about Japanese culture.
Again, the stuff that you might want to hear will probably not be talked about by those most knowledgeable about Hatsumi's feelings in public. If you really want to know, and can't ask Hatsumi in person, then you need to ask people IN PRIVATE and not out where it will cause trouble.
If you turely want an answer, I would suggest you join a forum such as Kutaki.org, find out the people that seem to say that Hatsumi does not like SKH and privately e-mail them for a reason. There are many people on that forum that have mentioned that they have heard Hatsumi talk about Hayes. It would be best if you found out their side of the story and then the other side.
I should point out that Japanese do not tend to blast people in public. They can be very polite when faced with someone they dislike. This makes it hard to tell what is going on without a bit of knowledge about Japanese culture.
Again, the stuff that you might want to hear will probably not be talked about by those most knowledgeable about Hatsumi's feelings in public. If you really want to know, and can't ask Hatsumi in person, then you need to ask people IN PRIVATE and not out where it will cause trouble.
Mountain Kusa
Orange Belt
Jason,
You must look at the Bible for what it says about serving two masters. If you want training at The Chattanooga Bujinkan for Budo Taijutsu / ninjutsu, then that is were you will get it. If you want training through the quest centers, that is were you will get it. We get our Training through Ed Martin, Angie Smith, Thom Humphries, Tom Hayden, The arkansas Bujinkan group, Texas Bujinkan Dojo's, a group in North Carolina, and the collective gets bigger all the time. Anybody that trains under Ed we work with for the betterment of the bujinkan, so we can do as Dr. Hatsumi has said for years and train with as many people as possible, and we do not charge high prices.
Ultimatly the decision lies with you, I have told you that you are welcome. I have one person that trains in TKD and travels to nashville to study iaido. When he gets his Dan in TKD he will be stopping that and staying with Ninjutsu, the iaido is cool and he may continue that as long as he likes. The only reason I am allowing the TKD is because of this mans heart, he has a good one. The point here is that instructors and i dont care who they are, do not like their students getting ranking in the relatively same thing from two places. Either you hate the one or love the other, no man can serve two masters.
You must look at the Bible for what it says about serving two masters. If you want training at The Chattanooga Bujinkan for Budo Taijutsu / ninjutsu, then that is were you will get it. If you want training through the quest centers, that is were you will get it. We get our Training through Ed Martin, Angie Smith, Thom Humphries, Tom Hayden, The arkansas Bujinkan group, Texas Bujinkan Dojo's, a group in North Carolina, and the collective gets bigger all the time. Anybody that trains under Ed we work with for the betterment of the bujinkan, so we can do as Dr. Hatsumi has said for years and train with as many people as possible, and we do not charge high prices.
Ultimatly the decision lies with you, I have told you that you are welcome. I have one person that trains in TKD and travels to nashville to study iaido. When he gets his Dan in TKD he will be stopping that and staying with Ninjutsu, the iaido is cool and he may continue that as long as he likes. The only reason I am allowing the TKD is because of this mans heart, he has a good one. The point here is that instructors and i dont care who they are, do not like their students getting ranking in the relatively same thing from two places. Either you hate the one or love the other, no man can serve two masters.
- Thread Starter
- #6
Thanks Chris. Yeah, I am starting to think I would just be better off training at an actuall dojo with you. I have been really torn lately. You sound like a really nice person which speaks volumes to me. I am DEFINATELY going to come and check out your dojo. By the way, I meant NO disrespect to you on this forum. I just wanted to put out how I've been feeling. I really appreciate your honesty and time. I am gonna e-mail you with another question later. Thanks again.
Mountain Kusa
Orange Belt
LOL, I am not offended. It is just better to make a decision than to go around all day with inner conflict. In todays modern environment it is called stress.
See you soon
Chris
See you soon
Chris
L
Limeydog
Guest
Hang in there Satt...
Shogun
Master Black Belt
I studied Aikido for 2 years at Tsubaki Grand shrine. It was a wonderful experience that eventually led me to other arts. I havent trained in months, but I still say that I practice Aikido, because I use the methods when training in other martial arts.
Satt, I went through a similar thing. I was getting ready to travel to Train with Steven Hayes when I was told that it would cut off my Bujinkan training. So I kept attending Bujinkan schools.
I gots a question regarding TSD and BJK. if someone trains in TSD, then they quit, can they train with Bujinkan? totally Hypothetical (sp?)
Don, who on Kutaki knows personally. I have this thing about beleiving people when it is second hand, word of mouth, heresay etc. secondhand kills.
Kyle
Kizaru
Purple Belt
What about Quinten Chambers, the man that wrote the "Stickfighting" book with Hatsumi sensei? He lives in Hawaii and still teaches what he learned from Hatsumi sensei...Satt said:
J
jibran
Guest
BTW, Chris Moon lives close to Mr. Chambers (Mr. Moon is a Bujinkan practioner) and that leads me to believe...
Mountain Kusa
Orange Belt
Jason,
I just happened to think, I have a friend in Hawaii that was one of my teachers at the Atlanta Bujinkan Dojo and is a SanDan. If I could get hold of him he would probably be willing to train with you and get you started. When The Atl. Dojo Closed I, and a couple of friends of mine tried to get him to be our teacher and he said that he would help us but that he did not want to go through the ranking process even though he was/is a shidoshi-ho. I would like you (if he will) to experience his taijutsu. How hard is it or expensive for you to travel to other islands? Also PM me and give me your Home # and if he will he may contact you.
I just happened to think, I have a friend in Hawaii that was one of my teachers at the Atlanta Bujinkan Dojo and is a SanDan. If I could get hold of him he would probably be willing to train with you and get you started. When The Atl. Dojo Closed I, and a couple of friends of mine tried to get him to be our teacher and he said that he would help us but that he did not want to go through the ranking process even though he was/is a shidoshi-ho. I would like you (if he will) to experience his taijutsu. How hard is it or expensive for you to travel to other islands? Also PM me and give me your Home # and if he will he may contact you.
- Thread Starter
- #13
Because of my military job, traveling to other islands would be close to imposible. I know it sounds like B.S., but my ship is getting ready to go on deployment REALLY soon. If I could I would love to meet him though. Too bad he doesn't live on Oahu. I could drive to his place anytime. Thanks though. If I can meet him somehow I will. Sounds great to me.
Mountain Kusa
Orange Belt
I dont think he is on oahu because when I talk to him he says that at times he goes to the big island. That might mean more to you than me. I think he said he is on kauai?
L
Limeydog
Guest
He lives on Kauai? Oh how he must be suffering...
I have been to the island of Kauai several times and fall in love with it more and more. I actually went there for my homeymoon...I actually got to see some of the island LOL....
I love Poipoo beach
I have been to the island of Kauai several times and fall in love with it more and more. I actually went there for my homeymoon...I actually got to see some of the island LOL....
I love Poipoo beach
Deaf
Green Belt
Satt
My advise to you, is not to worry about the SKH conflict and just go train and have fun. The people that Chris trains with are really AWESOME teachers and I would strongly advise that if you get the chance to train at Chris's dojo. Or if you are near the Pulaski TN the Middle Tennesse Bujinkan Dojo (Slaytons) is another option since they train with Jeff Ochester Shidoshi at Dayton Bujinkan who is awesome as well.
It looks like you have an excellent opportunity for some really first class training and quite frankly you need to take advantage of that and quit worrying about the SKH stuff. If later in the future you have the opportunity to try the Quest route, try it and see what you think.
I hope that your path is revealed for you.
Ok now for Mr. Funnerman...Ok you seemed to know the same people that I know so I think it might be possible that I know you from the when I was at the Quest Center...however I was there during it's infancy so I'm not sure. PM me if you get a chance.
My advise to you, is not to worry about the SKH conflict and just go train and have fun. The people that Chris trains with are really AWESOME teachers and I would strongly advise that if you get the chance to train at Chris's dojo. Or if you are near the Pulaski TN the Middle Tennesse Bujinkan Dojo (Slaytons) is another option since they train with Jeff Ochester Shidoshi at Dayton Bujinkan who is awesome as well.
It looks like you have an excellent opportunity for some really first class training and quite frankly you need to take advantage of that and quit worrying about the SKH stuff. If later in the future you have the opportunity to try the Quest route, try it and see what you think.
I hope that your path is revealed for you.
Ok now for Mr. Funnerman...Ok you seemed to know the same people that I know so I think it might be possible that I know you from the when I was at the Quest Center...however I was there during it's infancy so I'm not sure. PM me if you get a chance.
Deaf
Green Belt
Satt said:
I lived in Aiea...right across the street from Pearlridge Mall...you know the area? Lived there for a couple of years in my teens...Definitely miss the weather and the lifestyle.
- Thread Starter
- #19
It's kinda funny you mention that. I was just there a few minutes ago buying a wooden knife and green belt (preperations) LOL. I live right across the street from the airport. Thanks for your advice. I look forward to moving back soon.Deaf said:
Mountain Kusa
Orange Belt
Deaf, Are the Slayton's in the bujinkan? I have never heard of them. The reason I ask is that I get emails from that area in Tenn. all the time from people looking to find a dojo and the only one i know that is even close is in nashville and i have no idea if he is still teaching. If you will let me know and PM me a private email to these folks I can forward them some training partners. There are people all over Tenn. Looking to train in this art and no one around to help them.
