Mushin vs. Munen

[Nomad]

The other night after class our instructor was talking with some of us, and mentioned that he's never gotten a good answer from prospective black belts when he's asked what the difference between Mushin (mind of no mind) and Munen (no thought) was.

A quick check of Google and related searches indicates that many people view them as synonymous. Even Zen and Japanese Culture (Suzuki) appears to use the terms interchangeably... but perhaps I'm not reading carefully enough. Obviously, my instructor sees a difference. I have a few preliminary thoughts on possible differences, but thought I'd throw the question out to my friends at Martialtalk and see what you thought.

Any and all thoughts/suggestions welcome!

 

[Last Fearner]

Many might consider the terms "mushin" and "munen" to represent basically the same thing. I can understand where your teacher might see a distinction. It might be his own unique perspective, and difficult for others to grasp, therefore I will not attempt to give you an answer, but merely suggest some alternative perspective.

The "mind of no mind" is often misunderstood outside of Eastern Philosophy. It is more of a concept, than a state of physical being. Water flows through a hose with ease, however a kink in the hose can restrict the flow. The Spirit is the source of pure knowledge, and your ability to act without hesitation, or fault of conscious thought. The conscious mind interferes with the natural flow of the Spirit, thus mushin means to let go of your preconcieved notions, and allow the Spirit to direct your actions.

Both mushin, and munen refer to the state of your mind. To distinguish a difference between the two, consider this....

A still pond is without thought - - peaceful and serene. It does not resist your hand as you penetrate the surface, but it absorbs, and surrounds you. Likewise, a flowing river is without intent. There is no judgment, prejudice, or preconceived outcome to its journey. The moving water can take you where you want to go if you learn to steer within its flow, or it can wash over you, and destroy everything in its path.

For an interesting, and very insightful read from a clearly enlightened individual, may I suggest you visit the following website. I happened across it in my search to help you with an answer here. I thank you for being the impetus for my connection with this person's spiritual work.

http://soulsword.org/nomind.html

Here is one particular quote:
"Empty your own mind of its concepts and expectations and fall without anything to cling to into the void and you will discover what I am not saying. Yan's poem says,

“No thought of action, just flow.”​

True. Where there is no thought of action, where will the explanation of the moves comes from? There is a trinity in our Zen practice.

No Mind, No-Thought, No-Reflection,
Mushin , Munen, Muso.
​

If one is not to reflect, the matter is finished, completely burned out, as Shunryu Suzuki/Roshi put it in Zen Mind/Beginning Mind."

Think about this, when a golfer is about to hit a ball, his action can be "perfectly on" and he will get the best results. However, is he over-thinking his swing, distracted by the crowd, or the fact that it is a difficult shot with bunkers, and trees, etc? As he swings, what thoughts are on his mind? Was he disturbed by a cough, or did he think about what he will have for dinner later? When the swing is done, does he dwell on a bad shot? At the next hole, will he still be reflecting about his last mistake, and make yet another?

What is to come? What is happening? What just happened a moment ago? Let these things go, and you will have Mushin no shin, Munen, and Muso.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Nomad]

Thanks for the well-thought out reply. This is one I am definitely grappling with and I am trying to look at a number of different angles to this question. Any other thoughts?