Musashi swords

[Manny]

What can you tell me about the Musashi swords? what about the Takemoto Hanagiri Katana?

Manny

 

[pgsmith]

I am assuming that Musashi swords is one of the large number of Chinese forges now producing low-end Japanese style swords? I don't think I've ever used one.

 

[joshbrown]

Decent beginners sword. It certainly functions okay as a cutting sword if that's what you want.

Check out the reviews on this site --

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/authentic-japanese-swords.html#Bare-Bones

 

[Flying Crane]

I own a couple Musashi swords. I bought them mostly for the "collection". I am not educated about Japanese swordsmanship, nor do I have any legitimate training in the weapon. So that should be kept foremost in mind when reading my comments.

Musashi are made in China. They are definitely "real" weapons in the sense that they are sharp and have a generally accurate sword shape and heft, and are probably reasonably durable and could definitely be used effectively to cut somebody up pretty badly. But this assessment comes from me, who as I said have no real background with the weapon.

I would say that they are the bottom level of a "real" Japanese-styled weapon. But as such there are probably questions about the overall design, dimensions, weight, balance, heft, and fittings that would not be acceptable to a real student of the sword. They seem "good enough" to me, but I would wager a serious student would find solid reasons to find these issues lacking and problematic.

If you want a nice looking piece to hang on the wall, that is still a "real" weapon, and is affordable, Musashi could be the thing for you. If you want to be a serious student of the sword and study with a good teacher, I suspect the Musashi would not be acceptable.

 

[Sukerkin]

Couldn't have said it better myself, FC .

The primary question for Manny is, what do you want it for?

If you are looking to start studying the art of the sword, then I would heartily recommend against a Musashi, unless, maybe, you were in a school that practised tameshigiri 'early' and are after a throw-away 'cutter' that you don't mind wrecking.

If you are seeking a true live blade, then you need to be looking at swords that cost ten times what a Musashi will. I have always recommended Tozando to anyone who asks about where to buy blades for JSA:

http://www.e-japanesesword.net/URLr...0/Folded-Tamahagane-Katana-Sword-p/212-s5.htm

However, I note that now they are making their live blades in Germany. I am sure they have their reasons but that somewhat diminishes them in my eyes.http://www.e-japanesesword.net/URLr...0/Folded-Tamahagane-Katana-Sword-p/212-s5.htm

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What can you tell me about the Musashi swords? what about the Takemoto Hanagiri Katana?

Manny

The one that I am familiar with is a Paul Chen sword from the 'practical series.'

One of my students owns one. Prior to his training with me, he was one of those guys who liked to whack non-metal objects in his back yard. The posts of his mom's deck have large chunks taken out of them from his "self training."

The negative effect that his self-training has had on his formal training, both under my instruction and during his time at a kendo school prior to his training under me, has quadruple the time that it took him to learn even the most basic techniques, but I will say that his Musashi sword survived several years of such antics, though the sayo is ruined from several years of abusive re-sheathing and using the sheath as an off hand weapon while playing samurai, and now it has large cracks running over a third of its length.

The sword itself is a carbon steel blade with a tsuka sized similarly to that of a 39 shinai in length. The tsuka is leather wrapped, which is, I suppose, a matter of personal preference, though I don't care for leather wrapped tsukas.

The longer tsuka looks cool and I suppose aids in cutting. I'd say that it is sized for an exceptionally tall person, except that I am an exceptionally tall person and simply find it to be artificial, not to mention that the blade length is the same as that of most other katana; only the tsuka is elongated.

From what I can tell, the tuska is of a traditional construction and the sword was touted as a practical sword on the Paul Chen website when I looked it up back in 2006, so it is probably sound with regards to not coming apart when cutting.

I view it as decorative piece with practical utility. What is your interest in the sword?

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe Paul Chen has a model sword called "Musashi", which is different from the company called Musashi.

 

[cdunn]

Couldn't have said it better myself, FC .

The primary question for Manny is, what do you want it for?

If you are looking to start studying the art of the sword, then I would heartily recommend against a Musashi, unless, maybe, you were in a school that practised tameshigiri 'early' and are after a throw-away 'cutter' that you don't mind wrecking.

If you are seeking a true live blade, then you need to be looking at swords that cost ten times what a Musashi will. I have always recommended Tozando to anyone who asks about where to buy blades for JSA:

http://www.e-japanesesword.net/URLr...0/Folded-Tamahagane-Katana-Sword-p/212-s5.htm

However, I note that now they are making their live blades in Germany. I am sure they have their reasons but that somewhat diminishes them in my eyes.

To my knowledge, the manufacture of shinsakuto in Japan is functionally limited to artistic works. They are, I believe, required to be of folded tamahagane - Tozando is offering cut-rate blades in "spring" steel and C105W (1095). It would therefore behoove them to have a Japan-certified master smith who can fold their tamahagane and 1095 in one place, while overseeing journeymen who are making the un-folded 1095 and spring blades, and they may not be able to do that in Japan.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think if you are looking to study Japanese sword work then like Sukerkin said they are not ideal. Instead find a good instructor and train and then I am sure they will tell you what to get.

 

[Manny]

I own a couple Musashi swords. I bought them mostly for the "collection". I am not educated about Japanese swordsmanship, nor do I have any legitimate training in the weapon. So that should be kept foremost in mind when reading my comments.

Musashi are made in China. They are definitely "real" weapons in the sense that they are sharp and have a generally accurate sword shape and heft, and are probably reasonably durable and could definitely be used effectively to cut somebody up pretty badly. But this assessment comes from me, who as I said have no real background with the weapon.

I would say that they are the bottom level of a "real" Japanese-styled weapon. But as such there are probably questions about the overall design, dimensions, weight, balance, heft, and fittings that would not be acceptable to a real student of the sword. They seem "good enough" to me, but I would wager a serious student would find solid reasons to find these issues lacking and problematic.

If you want a nice looking piece to hang on the wall, that is still a "real" weapon, and is affordable, Musashi could be the thing for you. If you want to be a serious student of the sword and study with a good teacher, I suspect the Musashi would not be acceptable.

Thank you, as you do my experience with katanas is low, I do not practice or perform tameshigiri (cuts), I do not do iaido,kenjutsu or another form of japanese sword training, waht I know is how to cut plastic bootles filled with wather and some fruits or vegetables because almot anyone can do it thay are softh targets BTW. I want a katana as a show piece but not want an el chapo zinc alloy one that falls apart the first time I try to cut something, in the other hand I would like to get involved in iaido and definetively do some cuts or light cuts on fruits/vegetables, wather plastic botles and some cardbox, for that matter I went to visit my friend Mark who is a 3rd dan black belt in kendo and 1st kyu in iado and he showed me his katana, this katana is the last samurai replica by musashi is a carbon steel sword that he uses to do iaido and to do light cutting (like the objects I wrote above) and he told me the sword is very good to do this, however he knows that for another kind of cuts like maybe tatami mats or something more denser the katana could fail to do it.

Mark got the last samurai katana U$D120.00. Mark told me that if I could I would go the next step and buy the Takemoto Hanagiri Katana that is around U$D185.00 and this katana will be a better choice that the sword he has BUT he told me his kataka has been very good one for the money and the tasks he knows the sword can handle.

So basically, maybe I will buy the USD185.00 Katana but the less expensive one could be suficient for me for the moment.

Manny

 

[Manny]

Couldn't have said it better myself, FC .

The primary question for Manny is, what do you want it for?

If you are looking to start studying the art of the sword, then I would heartily recommend against a Musashi, unless, maybe, you were in a school that practised tameshigiri 'early' and are after a throw-away 'cutter' that you don't mind wrecking.

If you are seeking a true live blade, then you need to be looking at swords that cost ten times what a Musashi will. I have always recommended Tozando to anyone who asks about where to buy blades for JSA:

http://www.e-japanesesword.net/URLr...0/Folded-Tamahagane-Katana-Sword-p/212-s5.htm

However, I note that now they are making their live blades in Germany. I am sure they have their reasons but that somewhat diminishes them in my eyes.

Thank you as usual sensei, you got me pretty well, here in my country is dificult to get a very good real katana and I mean the japanese forged ones, besides they cost ALOT!! and I don't have that cash to expend on on, I am the avere working man with a family to take care of it and yes... a little nuts about martial arts and weaponery. It's is possible as I aswerde to FC that I will take iaido classes just to know something more about the katana and how to use it and definetively I will like to perform light cuts and that's all, maybe if I get hooked on the iaido and tameshigeri I will want a better katana but that's not the case right now.

Manny

 

[Manny]

The one that I am familiar with is a Paul Chen sword from the 'practical series.'

One of my students owns one. Prior to his training with me, he was one of those guys who liked to whack non-metal objects in his back yard. The posts of his mom's deck have large chunks taken out of them from his "self training."

The negative effect that his self-training has had on his formal training, both under my instruction and during his time at a kendo school prior to his training under me, has quadruple the time that it took him to learn even the most basic techniques, but I will say that his Musashi sword survived several years of such antics, though the sayo is ruined from several years of abusive re-sheathing and using the sheath as an off hand weapon while playing samurai, and now it has large cracks running over a third of its length.

The sword itself is a carbon steel blade with a tsuka sized similarly to that of a 39 shinai in length. The tsuka is leather wrapped, which is, I suppose, a matter of personal preference, though I don't care for leather wrapped tsukas.

The longer tsuka looks cool and I suppose aids in cutting. I'd say that it is sized for an exceptionally tall person, except that I am an exceptionally tall person and simply find it to be artificial, not to mention that the blade length is the same as that of most other katana; only the tsuka is elongated.

From what I can tell, the tuska is of a traditional construction and the sword was touted as a practical sword on the Paul Chen website when I looked it up back in 2006, so it is probably sound with regards to not coming apart when cutting.

I view it as decorative piece with practical utility. What is your interest in the sword?

Daniel

Right now, a decorarive piece with practical utility, just to learn some iaido and do some light cutting.

Manny

 

[Manny]

This is the katana I've been looking for http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-70160687-katana-takemoto-hanagiri-filo-maximo-para-combate-y-cortes-_JM

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

Mark got the last samurai katana U$D120.00. Mark told me that if I could I would go the next step and buy the Takemoto Hanagiri Katana that is around U$D185.00 and this katana will be a better choice that the sword he has BUT he told me his kataka has been very good one for the money and the tasks he knows the sword can handle.

Manny

Keep one thing in mind, Manny: sometimes "good for the money" is still "not good enough".

again, it just depends on what you want to do with it. Personally, I am not familiar with the different models you have listed, the $185 model, etc. I spent $300 or $400 on mine, but I don't remember exactly. It is a real weapon. But it may not be adequate or appropriate for real training in legitimate Japanese swordsmanship.

If the Zombie hordes come pounding on my front door, sure I'll bust them out and start lopping off heads as fast as I can. If the handle comes loose or it fails in some other way, I'll grab the other one from the closet. It'll function. But how well it holds up over time is unclear, and how well it performs due to dimensions, balance, etc., is also unclear.

It just really depends on what you want to do with it.

 

[pgsmith]

... just to learn some iaido and do some light cutting.

Hey Manny,
These two things require different tools for the beginner. You should definitely NOT try to begin any iaido with a sharp sword. All the students that I've been acquainted with have begun with a wooden bokken (with or without saya), and then graduated to an unsharpened iaito. It takes a number of years of steady practice to get to the point that you can safely use a sharp sword for iaido, because a small mistake will leave your thumb or fingers lying on the ground. If you are simply wanting to play with your sword in the back yard, then pretty much any inexpensive Chinese made sword such as Musashi will cut up fruits and veggies. If you do that, please be as safe as you can, and never cut alone as you can bleed out very quickly from a minor sword injury.

Never forget that swords are made specifically to kill people, and they have NO safety to render them harmless. They are just like a gun that is always loaded, cocked, and ready to fire and can kill or maim you in a heartbeat.

 

[Manny]

Hey Manny,
These two things require different tools for the beginner. You should definitely NOT try to begin any iaido with a sharp sword. All the students that I've been acquainted with have begun with a wooden bokken (with or without saya), and then graduated to an unsharpened iaito. It takes a number of years of steady practice to get to the point that you can safely use a sharp sword for iaido, because a small mistake will leave your thumb or fingers lying on the ground. If you are simply wanting to play with your sword in the back yard, then pretty much any inexpensive Chinese made sword such as Musashi will cut up fruits and veggies. If you do that, please be as safe as you can, and never cut alone as you can bleed out very quickly from a minor sword injury.

Never forget that swords are made specifically to kill people, and they have NO safety to render them harmless. They are just like a gun that is always loaded, cocked, and ready to fire and can kill or maim you in a heartbeat.

Thank you Paul, it may sounds weird but I really want a katana and some the the most close to the real thing, I thoug an alloy iato will be fine for the iaiido clases and maybe as a show piece but the iaito is not the real thing! and spend some hundred dolras in a nice iaito to then spend some more in a real sword it's out of question. And yes, I know I will have to start with a boken/bokuto in the iaido dojo and then as time progress I will opt for use the steel sword.

Maybe all of you that practice sword martial arts can afford a nice and good real sword, I don't, the katanas here in México even the less expensive ones that cost aroun 50-60 usd dollars in USA here in Mexico cost as mucha as twice or three times, so you can get the picture, a U$500.00 sword in USA here can ost as much as U$1000-U$1,200 and that's too much for me. That's why I am trying to buy the best katana I can in the range of U$D100-200 at my door.

Who in this forum has tested one of these swords? I am not a fool and know that a Musashi katana will not stand the rigors of repeated tameshigeri, the real tameshigeri I must say, but think that the musashi sword can withstand hundreds of light tameshigeri sessions for what I have seen on internet, however let me ask you again Who actualy has tested the sword and can coment the pros and cons?

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

Altho I own a couple of them, I have not cut anything with them.

My initial impression is that it would stand up to it, at least for a while. I suspect the real problem may lie in the hilt fittings. A Japanese katana style hilt is complex, made up of several pieces that need to be fitted properly to ensure they remain tight, solid, strong, and trustworthy. The best blade in the world, made by Vulcan himself, is worthless without a good RELIABLE hilt. If the hilt fails, or comes loose, or gods forbid the blade actually flies out of the hilt completely, it is a serious problem. That is the real unknown with a maker like Musashi. I suspect that initially there would be no problem, but I wonder about the longer term, how well the hilt will stand up to use, and if a seemingly tight fitting hilt will begin to loosen with time and use due to flaws that are not immediately apparent to someone without the proper education and experience to recognize the problem beforehand. This is a serious issue and if a problem develops someone (either the user of the weapon or a bystander) could be seriously cut or even killed. If the hilt fails, getting it properly fixed or replaced will probably cost you far more than the initial sword itself. So then the question becomes: why waste the money in the first place? Why not save for a while until you can purchase a piece that you know is reliable, from a reliable maker?

I am sure the blade itself will cut, and will withstand some use. But there may be subtle problems with weight, balance, and dimensions that could cause unnecessary strain on your body during use. This can affect your technique and the quality of the cuts, and in extreme cases can even lead to injury from overstrain.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Manny the swords you are looking at are not the real thing. They are very, very far from being the real thing!

Much better to listen to pgsmith, sukerkin or myself and get a teacher, an iaito and work from there! I really cannot stress it enough!

So if they are not the real thing. (ie. musashi cheap swords.) You want the real thing. Then find a competent instructor and they will eventually steer you in the right direction. (ie. booken, iaito and finally a quality shinken) Do not waste your time trying to learn how to use the Japanese sword without a competent instructor. In the end you will have just wasted your time and money on very poor products!

Hope that helps!

 

[Chris Parker]

I'm just going to jump in and second all of that.

Manny, a teacher is the first step. For no other reason that, if budget is a concern, imagine spending $200 on a sword, turning up in class when you get a teacher, only to be told that you are not under any circumstances to bring that attrocity into class again. That would be a waste of the $200, yeah?

The teacher will have an idea of what they accept, and what they don't, as well as possibly contacts with a supply which may get you a much better item a lot cheaper than you could find by yourself. But don't think about a live blade for Iai until you are seriously experienced (in most cases, Sandan or above), and don't think about doing anything like cutting with an Iaito (zinc-alluminium alloy), as it is specifically designed in it's selection of metals to not handle impact. It'll warp or break if you try to give it an edge or cut something with it, even a seemingly "soft" target like a plastic bottle filled with water.

That does bring me to another point, though. I have often wondered why people, without actual training or education in swordsmanship, want to have a real sword to cut things in their backyard. Really, it doesn't do anything. A big part of why you cut things is that it is feedback on the skill in your cut, the angle, the hasuji, your grip, your movement and power generation, and more, and if you don't have any education or training, what could you possibly learn from cutting things? I know the standard argument of "well, it's just fun, really", but to me that just feeds into a fantasy mindset, and serious martial artists, rather than approaching such a topic with the respect and seriousness that handling a real weapon should demand, instead "playing swords" in their backyards, just doesn't gel with me. If you're an experienced martial artist, show it. You're not a 9 year old kid.

And, as has been said, if you're after a "real sword", or something as close to one as possible, the ones you're looking at are nothing like them. So they don't match your needs that way either.

Oh, and if you are going to be cutting things like fruit and vegetables, learn to take care of the blade, or you're going to ruin it pretty quickly. But the first step, the very first step, is to get a teacher.

 

[Manny]

I apreciate your comentaries here, I will keep in mind all this post with it's replies and as you advice me I will take some sword clases and see what hapens, I will use the boken if I get hook on it then I can move to a decent iaito and then go for the next step.

However you won't get rid of me! I will keep posting here and asking too.

Manny