MT Encyclopedia Entry on Kenpo/Kempo

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - General' started by Bob Hubbard, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. kidswarrior

    kidswarrior Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,697
    Likes Received:
    151
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    California
    This is interesting in that if you look at John Bishop's lineage chart, it seems only EPAK descendants use the 'n'. Other than the overarching Ka*ju*ken*bo. Feel free to shoot this down, too, as I'm just thinking out loud. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. D.Cobb

    D.Cobb 2nd Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Australia
    Not entirely true. If you look outside of the American/ Hawaiian lines of Kenpo you will find others that use the 'N'.

    The only one that springs to mind right now (I'm having brain cramp), is Patrick McCarthy, and he's a Canadian. There are others, mostly those of Okinawan extraction, without the Japanese influence.

    --Dave
     
  3. Zoran

    Zoran Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    chicago area
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages

    The main thing though is not the spoken word, but the kanji. Kenpo/Kempo is the transliteration a Japanese word. However, one of the Okinawan laguages may speak/pronounce the word differently. It could also be possible that the original kanji was first used in one of the Okinawan islands carried over from China (note: I am no where even close to being an expert on these things).

    Incidentally, the kanji for Kenpo (Japanese) and Chuan Fa (Chinese) are identical (that I've seen at various sources).
     
  4. D.Cobb

    D.Cobb 2nd Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Australia
    I wonder if the original Okinawan kanji is the same too. If so does that make it Japanese or Chinese:idunno:

    I have read, with regard to the language influences, that the Chinese had a greater influence than the Japanese over the Okinawan language as well as influencing the martial arts component of their culture. This was of course until the Ryukyu Kingdom was annexed to Japan in the 1800's.

    However I will admit, I too am far from expert in this subject.

    --Dave
     
  5. Zoran

    Zoran Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    chicago area
    Probably.

    You know, I never really checked this before, but Japanese Kanji appears to be Chinese to begin with. See, I can be pretty dense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji

    Well, that explains why everything is similar. So the Kanji 拳法 in Japan would be Kenpo, in China it would be Chuan Fa. So in one of the old Okinawan laguages, who knows (well at least I don't).
     
  6. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Port Hope ON
    The japanese writing system was adopted from china......and before the kana system was developed, only kanji was used. Kanji means "han characters", which refer to the han dynasty.......Japan went through a time that everything chinese was in vogue.
    There are characters that are uniquely japanese that use chinese characters though.
    The characters have to readings, chinese (on-yomi) and japanese (kun-yomi).
     
  7. D.Cobb

    D.Cobb 2nd Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Australia
    Hey Zoran, this guy seems to know a bit more than you or I let's ask him....

    So Shawn, does this mean that Kenpo/ Kempo is a Japanese word or an Okinawan word? Are they 2 different languages or is Okinawan a subset of Japanese?

    --Dave (and possibly Zoran :) )
     
  8. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Port Hope ON
    As far as I know, Okinawan is a different language....or different enough that okinawan visitors needed a translator when visitning japan.
    This would lead me to surmise that kempo is a japanese word because:
    1. The differences in language.
    2. I've been told by japanese teachers.
    3. there are many references to it in old japanese martial arts texts.

    Now, it doesnt matter as japanese is pretty widely spoken in okinawa.

    Understanding that, is kempo an on-yomi or an kun yomi pronunciation?
    If it is an on-yomi pronunciation, then it is possible that the okinawan word would similar to the japanese word.

    I would like to add, the "n" or "m" in the spelling is irrelevant (unless you're from NA), either version is and should be acceptable, just be prepared to catch flak for whatever way you spell it.
     
  9. Zoran

    Zoran Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    chicago area
    Thank you, that is as I understood it as well (except for the on/kun yomi part).

    Also to add to it, Shorinji Kempo (Shaolin ChuanFa) has no relation to okinawan martial arts as it was reportedly brought back from China to Japan by the founder.

    I have also "heard" the following from those more in touch with the Japanese laguage;
    • Kenpo/Kempo better translates to english into "fighting method". I believe "fist law" tends to be more a translation of the Kanji symbols.
    • Kenpo/Kempo can be used, in Japan, for martial arts that have some Chinese origin.
    Anyways, this is what I have heard from others.
     
  10. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    539
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    "Kenpo" in Japan is often used generically to refer to a fighting art, much like "Karate" is used generically in the US.
     
  11. Zoran

    Zoran Black Belt

    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    chicago area
    Yep, that's the funny thing about languages. Words can mean different things to different people and context. You can easily see it in english when you look up a word in a dictionary and find several different definitions.
     
  12. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Port Hope ON
    I was told they use the word budo.
     
  13. bdocili

    bdocili White Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    Hey, quick question for you? Has Senior Professor Alemany broken off from Shaolin Kenpo? The reason I ask is that I keep seeing him referred to as "Grandmaster". His title in the Shaolin Kenpo association is Senior Professor as his last awarded rank was 8th degree in 1992. My teacher was also a Senior Professor (Genaro Jose) but he liked us to call him Sifu. There are only two grandmasters in Shaolin Kenpo; Great Grandmaster Ralph Castro and Grandmaster Rob Castro (next in line to take over the system). So, back to my question, has Mr. Alemany broken off?
     
  14. Kenpo5.0Hawker

    Kenpo5.0Hawker Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I can't get the Wiki to come up. I keep getting told - Error
     
  15. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    20,977
    Likes Received:
    1,796
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Just a note... you might want to look at the dates on some posts. The most recent in this thread is from 2007. I think Bob gave up on getting authors to maintain the Wiki...
     
  16. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    762
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    The wiki crashed a while back. I plan on recovering the content, but don't have an eta for that.
     
  17. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,551
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Sanger CA


    So, I am more tired than I realized. I stared at this and wondered, "What the F is an eta?"
     
  18. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    20,977
    Likes Received:
    1,796
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Add an f, and eta become feta... goat cheese.
     
  19. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    290
    Trophy Points:
    123

    Kanji are Chinese ideograms... The logic that I am reading is Okinawan is Japanese because they use the written Kanji.
    If this logic is valid... The Okinawan language, and the Japanese language are both Chinese.

    However, this is not the case at all. Japanese language also has in addition to Kanji.. Katakana... Hiragona.

    Moreover, ask any really old Okinawan are they Japanese or Okinawan. They had their own language, culture and royal family.... And were subjugated like the Koreans... The only difference is that the Korean occupation ended, and the Okinawan occupation had not.
     

Share This Page