MOTTS? Datu?

Discussion in 'Modern Arnis' started by Jade, Dec 21, 2001.

  1. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    Yes, the art has changed a lot from the 70s through the 80s and into the 90s, with the final heavy emphasis on tapi-tapi as opposed to the largo style and all the emphasis on empty-hand joint locks in the 80s. The art has evolved a great deal, and the Professor was actively doing this.

    I expect that the same will be true of the MARPPIO contingent--that they will be doing Modern Arnis as the Professor envisioned it in the early 70s, unless they have evolved it from there. I expect that it will be very different from what the MOTTs are doing.

    I respect this and I expect that much the same could be said of Mr. Hartman--the Professor sent him to Mr. Buot for Balintawak so that Mr. Hartman could continue to evolve from the Modern Arnis he has been taught. This is not a problem--the Professor studied and melded many styles, and he hadn't finished before his untimely death.

    I don't believe that anyone is put off by Mr. Worden's evolution of Modern Arnis. Please undersatnd--we simply don't know that much about him. I remember a comic (B.C.) that I read many years ago in which one character asked some innocuous question, to which the other character gave the answer then added, "Why do you ask?" The first character responded simply, "In order to find out." Speaking for myself, I am asking in order to find out.
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    Let me strongly agree with both of these points! I am pleased to hear that Mao speaks well of Mr. Worden, as Mao has appeared to take a balanced and fair view of things rather than a dogmatic approach and I am growing to trust his opinion (well, as much as I am prepared to trust any anonymous Internet poster--no offense intended Mao!).
     
  3. Don Rearic

    Don Rearic Guest

    Let me extremely specific and concise on one point[1] and then deliberately vague on another[2].

    1. Alot of people throw out names and people they teach to impress people. This has been done so much, it's moldy. Any minor association is propped up as being a Full-Time Instructor for [insert your favorite SpecOps people here].

    Datu Kelly Worden has a Full-Time Commitment, training on a weekly basis with a U.S. Special Forces Group. I know he has trained a Ranger Unit and the U.S.A.F. Combat Controllers in the past, but as far as I know, he is hardwired in and committed with one Special Forces Unit on a weekly basis right now.

    2. Because of #1, not likely he is going to be doing any nationwide seminar tours.

    No, I don't believe so. He might have been schooled in JKD at one time but I don't think so, what he did was take the concept and the spirit of what Sifu Lee wished to accomplish with JKD and then he simply did it.

    I think he wanted to let people know that maybe things were getting a bit stagnant and that some people needed to broaden their horizons, so to speak.

    I might sound like Datu Worden's Spokesman, but I'm not, there are some things he will always be able to answer far more accurately than I.
     
  4. Mao

    Mao Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Ohio
    1) "people of integrity expect to be believed, and when their not, they let time prove them right." I like this.

    2) Arnisador, if your curious I will e-mail you s little info. about myself. That way I won't be so anonymous, to you at least.
     
  5. Don Rearic

    Don Rearic Guest

    I had a minor computer problem and had to go and remove some TCIP whatnots, reboot and fire the piggy back up, I was going to comment on this earlier. Forgive my tardiness...

    I don't know if I would characterize any Filipino Martial Art in that particular light, but you are most certainly free to take from said Art and extract that philosophy from it. Further, I think when that happens and the roots of the Art, which is Martial, expires, then these Arts will become mere shells of their former selves.

    It's also rather odd to assign specificity to Filipino Arts that are Japanese in nature for me personally.

    These Arts, to alot of people, are Survival Arts. They are for the preservation of Life. If that means something bad happens to the next guy, so be it. But that is the thrust for me personally. I think that was lost when Aiki[ju]jutsu/Jujutsu split to form Judo and Aikido. When Jigoro Kano formed what would be called Judo, there were actually two forms of it, maybe more, but two basic forms. One was Sporting and one was Combative. Some Judoka have went back in time to regain the Combative aspects. With Aikido, Tomiki Ryu came about which brought in Combative aspects to that as well where they had been removed.
     
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    That's great that he is working with Special Forces, but a shame that I won't be likely to see him soon. I understand what you mean about people exaggerating any slight connection with the military or police but having read about Mr. Worden in the martial arts magazines I do not doubt that he has a significant and on-going commitment and the respect of those he helps train.

    Fair enough. I will remember the distinction. This board has been a great place for sharing information on Modern Arnis, and I am glad that we have more representatives of more groups/people now. That's great.
     
  7. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    I love it--what is the source?

    I appreciate the offer but for now I think I'll continue to enjoy the mystery. Hmmmm, not a MOTT but a member of the IMAF, Inc. board, right? According to http://www.modernarnis.net/about/board.shtml that leaves:

    Al Garza (TX)
    David Hoffman (MA)
    Brian Johns (OH)
    Dan McConnell (OH)
    David Ng (NC)
    Roland Rivera (NC)
    Scott Vanderzee (MI)
    Terry Wareham (CO)

    If you're Terry Wareham I do think well of you (but you don't sound like Terry); if you're Al Garza, please stop spamming me.

    In all seriousness, I appreciate your offer to take me at least partially into your confidence but I won't ask you to do that. Your words have been speaking for themselves.
     
  8. Mao

    Mao Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm not sure of the original source, but you can quote me as saying it. :D
    I guess that I have no choice but to let you continue enjoying the mystery. We'll see if you can deduce my true identity. :D
    Or we'll see if anyone rats me out.
     
  9. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    I suppose I wouldn't want to be taken too literally on this issue of do vs. jutsu as applied to Modern Arnis, but the Professor's big innovation was striking the stick in training, not the hand, and he always emphasized character issues to a great extent. It has the "feel" of a do in a lot of ways. I don't think of do arts as ineffective, I think of the emphasis as having shifted somewhat, re-balanced to account for the fact that most of us are not at threat of loss of life and limb constantly. I have no problem with people taking a martial art for exercise, self-confidence, personal growth, etc., as well as self-defense. For some people pure combat training is necessary or desired, but not for everyone.

    Yes, I agree, and that's fine. But this isn't so of as large a percentage of the practitioners as it used to be, and stick-to-stick fighting is an unlikely scenario these days. Mr. Worden's military training programs clearly must focus on effective techniques; but many people in Modern Arnis just like to bang sticks.

    The transition from jutsu arts to do and sports arts has been one of the most significant and noticeable martial arts evolutions of the last hundred-some-odd years. The Gracies consider judo to have been a great evolution--in contrast to your comment on it--because it allowed for full power techniques to be practiced against a resisting opponent, which they feel was a greater benefit than the loss of deadly techniques. (See also my post http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=455 in this forum.) I have no problem with what I take as your viewpoint--martial arts should be oriented toward fighting only--but many do them for exercise or enjoy the challenge of mastering fancy jumping kicks that are "demonstration only" techniques.

    Or to put it another way, I don't like Tae Bo either but it's been a heck of a success!
     
  10. Mao

    Mao Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Ohio
    As for aikido being ineffective, perhaps spending more time practicing the style would be enlightening. After so many years, in retrospect, I was a little concerned when I first began that I would lose the "edge" so to speak. Coming from "hard" styles for many years I didn't want to become "soft". After a while in aikido I had no more such concern. At a certain level many styles overlap. I began to apply theories, concepts and movements that made aikido, at times, almost frightening. I understand that many people practice it for the personal growth and I think that this is important. I have grown in many respects. But I believe that one of the biggest differences between "do" and "jutsu" is philosophical. The potential is usually present to injure, but we have a choice. Whether it's pistols at dawn or wiffle bats, one can make it either offensive or defensive.
     
  11. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2001
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    138
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY USA
    It seems that there has been some misunderstanding with my use of the word active in regards to Modern Arnis people. When I use that word it refers to people being active in the Modern Arnis community. Since Remy was hospitalized many people have become visible. The Presas kid's, Dan Anderson, Worden, Inocallo, etc.

    The Modern Arnis community is a small part of the Martial Art World. By no means did I intend to suggest that any one these people were not active martial artists, but the fact is that these people have not been interacting in Remy's organization for a long time!

    I must go now. We've had 4 feet of snow and more is on the way.

    :asian:

    PS: Kaith, we need a snow shoveling smile!
     
  12. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

    • Founding Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    4,526
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Florida
    While these terms can be used to differentiate most martial arts styles, I feel that they can only be accurately used when describing the Japanese martial arts. This is not merely because the terms originate from the Japanese MA.

    Many of the Japanese -jutsu arts were battlefield arts...systems designed for use in warfare, which is a different animal from a system designed for just self-defense. The -do arts can be an extension/offshoot/evolution of the -jutsu arts, in that they have evolved from the battlefield arts into something for the 'everyman' (or everywoman - no sexist, I!).

    Look at kendo. All the scoring points (kote, men, do, etc), would be pretty well armored on the Japanese soldier of old. However, if you look at...say...the Katori Shinto Ryu, their striking points are in between armor plates, or at other weak points in the armor. Katori Shinto Ryu's kenjutsu was designed to kill the enemy on the battlefield. Kendo was designed as a means of developing character through phsyical activity resembling traditional martial art.

    So to me, it is incorrect to classify non-Japanese arts (including karate) as -do or -jutsu arts, since they don't follow the same evolution as the arts that coined those terms. Karate was not used as a battlefield martial art. It has always been for individual seld-defense. Many of the FMA appear the same.

    Cthulhu
    stopping before I ramble on forever.
     
  13. no fefe

    no fefe Guest

    Hey Geo and Bob! Glad to see other NSI players in here! Don Rearic is posting in here as well so that is really cool.

    As far as I can recall Datu Worden's JKD influence came from Jesse Glover.

    The curriculum that is being taught to the Special Forces soldiers is pretty much stripped down, go for the throat training featuring Modern Arnis. We have the SF guys punching, kicking and slamming each other against concrete. We train outside but here in the Northwest it is mostly in the cold and rain, so we get quite a bit of dealing with natural elements added to the training.

    Datu Worden also has a camp every summer and has been presenting camps for over 20 years. Last year’s instructors were Datu Kelly Worden , Professor Leonard Trigg (JKD) and Dr. Brett Jacques (Sambo)--to limit these guys to a one word description is just for brevity they encompass more than what meets the eye. Other guest instructors have been James Keating, Burton Richardson, Maurice Smith, Greg Walker and the list goes on. I have been able to touch hands with many talented martial artists as well, so if you have the chance I recommend attending Datu’s Water and Steel summer camp.

    Anyway I look forward to contributing to the forum.

    Robert K.
     
  14. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    I surrender! I was looking for an appropriate analogy. What more general term(s) might be used to describe a more-or-less similar evolution of non-Japanese arts, as the Professor did with arnis? (Perhaps some would disagree with me that he did this but that is a separate matter.) How would one describe this? To what should it be compared?
     
  15. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    That's great for the art--this deserves to be more widely publicized! Everyone thinks of Modern Arnis as a stick art but it has good open-hand and knife techniques that can be overlooked.

    Thanks for posting. Are these camps held in Washington state then? Can anyone attend?
     
  16. Don Rearic

    Don Rearic Guest

    I think it is most excellent and I believe Modern Arnis will have its day in the sun in this new arena.

    Yes! :D
     
  17. zenman

    zenman Guest

    I am a Student of Kelly Worden's so I was immediately interested in the topic of this thread and dismayed at its contents. Especially since, I had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with The Professor in his last months as his therapist. When I was in town I spent anywhere from ten to twelve hours a day with him massaging him and making sure he was comfortable. During my time there, I also had the pleasure of meeting Master Roland Dantes who answered many of my questions, and MOTT Ken Smith an all around nice guy who also answered some of my questions. I would like to include some observations I had during those sessions with Professor Presas.

    1. There is an allusion in this list that Professor may not have been fully mentally competent during those last few months. Nothing could be further from the truth. While his strength and mobility were stolen by his illness, his mind was still sharp and he was strategizing until the end. In my opinion, right up until the last two weeks or so I do not believe Professor thought there would be an end.

    2. It was very clear Datu's were to be held in higher regard than anyone else in his system is. Professor stated that a Datu was number one and was not to be bound by the system or any organization. This was further clarified by Master Dantes, who stated that by conferring Datu upon a person the professor was giving the person freedom to develop themselves and their art. Professor also made it clear that one was made a Datu because they showed something in their art that others in the group did not possess. That one did not attain this rank because of years in service or number of seminars attended. Master Dantes further stated that a Datu may not be the "technically proficient person" because they are limited by their technique, a Datu is the one with the most potential, one that can step outside of technical proficiency to a higher level, to make the art theirs.

    3. On the question of active Datus, this point is moot for the reason stated above. If a person is "set free" to develop then obviously there is no such thing as Active/Inactive.

    4. On the Datu's as a group, the Professor had an affinity for all of the Datu's and he was clearly proud of each Datu, as a father is proud of his son's. It was clear the some Datu's had done things that had made him unhappy at times but like a father he still loved them all.

    5. On Datu Worden (which seems to be a popular subject here), Professor was very proud of him and was very clear in stating that he is the "FIRST AMERICAN DATU". He made this point abundantly clear to everyone who walked in to the room (including the nursing staff). He also stated that Datu Worden was made a Datu when he showed Professor his understanding of Arnis by "connecting the systems", his exact words were "I became the student and he became the teacher...I made him Datu on the spot." Professor was clear that Datu Worden and he were at odds at times but that Datu Worden needed to find his way and that while doing this he had become his most famous student. He further elaborated that because of that time Datu Worden and Modern Arnis benefited greatly and that this could not have been done inside the system. He also stated that Datu Worden was the Senior Blademaster of Modern Arnis. He spoke of no other Datu in such terms and only one other person in these terms and that was Master Dantes.

    6. On Datu Hartman, the Professor had an affinity for all of the Datus as stated above however he did not speak much of Datu Hartman in my presence. Obviously, he has seen something in Datu Hartman he just never stated to me what that was. He did imply he was where Datu Worden was about 10-15 years ago.


    I see this thread with obviously disparaging remarks about Datu Worden and Modern Arnis and wonder about the integrity and knowledge of the people who are making them. What I have revealed here is only the tip of the iceberg on this subject (as I said earlier I was spending anywhere from 10 - 12 hrs with the Professor per day.) I think many of the postings here are the similar to the Vultures feeding on decaying corpse in order to survive. These people obviously do not know the whole story and are trying to boost their own image now that there is no one to dispute them. Those people had better watch out because I believe a voice from the grave is about to be heard.
     
  18. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    Ah, thanks for clarifying that! This explains the "first" datu issue and is line with the list that had been posted here (Mr. Inacallo of Canada first in chronological order, followed by Mr. Worden).

    Could you comment on the title Master (as in Master Dantes)?

    Wondering openly about the integrity of people here seems an unnecessarily negative approach and a backwards step from the understanding posters here have come to recently. I believe that if you re-read the entire thread you'll find that Mr. Worden's name appeared in a list as part of an answer to the question "How many datus are there?" On the first page of this thread you'll find Mr. Hartman's post in that regard where he also notes that he is the only datu to have regularly attended camps in recent years. I expect that he saw this as a simple factual statement and others saw it as an affront or challenge. This happens all too easily in this medium with the absence of vocal, facial, and other cues.

    Wondering openly about the knowledge of people here is different. I certainly admit that I was ignorant of many aspects of Mr. Worden's career and have been attempting to learn more. Your post has been helpful in that regard.

    This is rather exaggerated and to be frank seems to fit in with the hyper-defensive mindset that has accompanied the arrival of every one of Mr. Worden's supporters here. Why is this? Can it be a surprise that when none of Mr. Worden's students were here, his point of view was not well represented? It seems a simple matter of logic.

    I can't speak for all but I really don't think any of us are hostile to Mr. Worden or his supporters. We have only recently had his point of view represented (as opposed to the IMAF, Inc., MARPPIO, and WMAA which have had representatives here longer). I think you'll find that factual information will be well received whereas comparisons to vultures will not. I have found the discussion on the Knives forum most useful, for example. I believe we have moved beyond the miscommunication to useful communication. I ask you: Are you truly presenting the image you wish to present to us?
     
  19. Don Rearic

    Don Rearic Guest

    No, I think that was made clear earlier actually. It was the statement about Modern Arnis people thinking he was JKD and JKD people thinking he was Modern Arnis, therefore, more or less saying that, that particular statement.

    That's a tricky thing. Words mean things. "Hyper-defensive mindset" carries a distinctly negative connotation with it. The opposite of that would be, "offensive," and when the thread(s) had the appearance of going in that direction, in came the Law to lay down exactly what the Law of the Land was.

    So, as I said, words mean things. I don't see anything in here of defensive or offensive mindset. I see some things being straightened out as to precisely who Datu Worden is and more than a glimpse of what exactly his relationship with Professor Presas is/was.

    Simply, who is Datu Worden and what exactly is he doing, what does he do? All of the answers have been put forth from that mindset and not something merely defensive.

    Indeed. It can be productive in the extreme if allowed to flourish. I think a careful examination of Datu Worden's Statement I posted will provide a clear picture of exactly what Datu Worden represents and supports. And yes, it might lead to more questions, but up to this point, it should answer alot.
     
  20. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    It's been most helpful to hear from Mr. Worden's students and now from Mr. Worden himself about that. As with the arnis/JKD perception you mentioned, it's better to get the information from the source.

    Agreed--it does answer a lot of questions. This has been a positive interaction, both with respect to learning more about Mr. Worden and his group and with respect to discussing the martial arts in general.
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

don rearic motts