Most important Kata

[chinto]

I agree with Seasoned. How they answer says a lot. For the Naha based ryu, Sanchin is invariably the answer seniors give. I have heard Tensho given, as well as Seisan. Those are in the ball park, but you can't really understand them without Sanchin.

For the Shuri based ryu, I have to say the Pinan...all 5 as a unit. I know that many say Kosokun (Kushanku), and that would be ok, too, because the Pinan are derived, in part, from it. But, there are just some things in Pinan that you miss in Kosokun.

The difference in responses is just indicative of the different philosophies and origins of the ryu. We do the Naha kata in Shito ryu, but the emphasis is different. In spite of the fact that Mabuni incorporated the Naha kata, we are still primarily a Shuri/Tomari ryu. Nobody does Goju like a true Goju practitioner. There is just something missing if you haven't been Goju all your karate life. But, these are the nuances that make it all so interesting.

actualy the kusanku and kusanku dai have every thing in all 5 pinan kata and a bit more. so i would say that the kusanku kata's are more important as that is where there is evedence that Itosu developed the 5 pinan kata from.

 

[cstanley]

actualy the kusanku and kusanku dai have every thing in all 5 pinan kata and a bit more. so i would say that the kusanku kata's are more important as that is where there is evedence that Itosu developed the 5 pinan kata from.

No, they do not. Go through them. The Pinan are actually more subtle than the Kosokun kata, and have potential for more jujutsu waza. Most of the sequences in Pinan Sandan and Pinan Godan are totally lacking in the Kosokun. BTW, Kushanku (dai) is Kosokun Dai. Then there is Kosokun Sho (Kushanku Sho).

 

[searcher]

Gojushiho and Rohai are my two favorites, however.

They are both fine forms. We have two variations of Rohai that we use.

 

[chinto]

No, they do not. Go through them. The Pinan are actually more subtle than the Kosokun kata, and have potential for more jujutsu waza. Most of the sequences in Pinan Sandan and Pinan Godan are totally lacking in the Kosokun. BTW, Kushanku (dai) is Kosokun Dai. Then there is Kosokun Sho (Kushanku Sho).

I dont know which version of the kusanku katas you are doing. yes there is kusanku sho and kusanku dai, and there are some diferences in them if they are from the shuri linige or the tamari linage. what we use is the tamari version. also there is a fairly large variation in the pinan kata between styles from what i have seen. but there is a great deal of potential for what you are calling "jujitsu waza" which is as native to karate as it is to jujitsu, as Okinawan karate has always used joint locks and manipulations and traps and brakes and yes even throws, in the kusanku katas as in the pinan katas. that is not to say that the pinan kata are not very very valuable! becouse they are, but if i had to give up one or the other, i would give up the pinan kata first.

which linige does your kusanku katas come from? I also wonder what your pinan kata look like. for instance the pinan katas of matsumura seito is very very diferent then what we do in shobayashi shorin ryu. that is not to say better you understand, mearly that it is diferent.

 

[searcher]

If it has not been brought up yet: The Pinans were developed from the Kusanku kata.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

If it has not been brought up yet: The Pinans were developed from the Kusanku kata.

Yep they sure were. But you would need to look at the older versions of Kusanku and not so much the Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai to really see it but you can see it in them.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Jumping away from the current discussion it still seems to me that the most important kata one learns is the first one he/she learns. Without that one the basic movement, correct posture, etc. will never be learned and all of the other kata will be flawed if the first one is not learns correctly, no matter what system one learns

 

[cstanley]

The Pinan were taken from Kosokun (Kushanku) and a kata called Channan, which has been lost to history. And, no, the Channan kata has not been rediscovered despite the gang of wannabees writing books claiming to have found it. It is like some kind of Holy Grail or something. Anyway, the Pinan are essential kata for the Shuri based ryu.

In response to the question which version of Pinan I do, they are the Motobu ha Shito ryu version of Shogo Kuniba. They are very much like the Matsubayashi Shorin versions, but the cat stances are deeper and we use an old stance called "su dachi" a lot. There are other minor differences. You can find a reasonable approximation of them on the Shito Kai website, but I find the performances uninspiring though technically very good. There is a lot of Shito ryu in Ga.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have never heard Kusanku be called Kosokun before.

 

[cstanley]

I have never heard Kusanku be called Kosokun before.

Yes, Kosokun is the Japanese name that is often used for those kata. Some use Kanku Dai and Sho, and others keep the Chinese name, Kushanku. But, they refer to the same kata.

 

[searcher]

Jumping away from the current discussion it still seems to me that the most important kata one learns is the first one he/she learns. Without that one the basic movement, correct posture, etc. will never be learned and all of the other kata will be flawed if the first one is not learns correctly, no matter what system one learns

But doesn't that fall under the training of basics? It seems to me that this area (basic movement, correct posture, etc.) falls under the training of basics andless under the umbrella of kata, if you have somewhat of a seperation in your training.

In the words of Linda Richman, "discuss."

 

[cstanley]

But doesn't that fall under the training of basics? It seems to me that this area (basic movement, correct posture, etc.) falls under the training of basics andless under the umbrella of kata, if you have somewhat of a seperation in your training.

In the words of Linda Richman, "discuss."

I think we were speaking of the most important kata as in reflective of the nature and philosophy of each ryu. What you say is true on an individual level. Kata is basics, by the way.

 

[Hand Sword]

For my very tardy response (my apologies to you all :asian would be the very first kata taught to people. It is the foundation from which all of the others are built from. Also, if you have to be away for a while (which I think we all do for one reason or another at some point), decide to come back and knock the tons of rust off, you have to start there (at the beginning) again. Plus, for me that seemed to be the one I knew, and didn't have to think about after the time off.

 

[tshadowchaser]

But doesn't that fall under the training of basics? It seems to me that this area (basic movement, correct posture, etc.) falls under the training of basics andless under the umbrella of kata, if you have somewhat of a seperation in your training.

true
but if those principles are not reinforced in the first kata then why even do the kata. The first one will be the foundation upon which all others follow. If the first one is sloopy in its posture and movement then so will all others. Thats about all I was trying to say

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes, Kosokun is the Japanese name that is often used for those kata. Some use Kanku Dai and Sho, and others keep the Chinese name, Kushanku. But, they refer to the same kata.

Ok thanks

 

[chinto]

Yep they sure were. But you would need to look at the older versions of Kusanku and not so much the Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai to really see it but you can see it in them.[/quote


I would need to see what you are calling "the older versions of Kusanku" to be sure, but I beleave that is what we are tought. we practice the same Kusanku sho and Dai that were tought by Master Kyan. ( the old tamari te version.) the katas have not been changed from what master kyan tought and so perhaps are exactly what you are talking about? but I can tell you they are the same katas that Chotoku Kyan tought when he started teaching and with out change.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Those would be one of the versions I am talking about along with the version that is taught in Matsumura Shorin Ryu.

 

[chinto]

Those would be one of the versions I am talking about along with the version that is taught in Matsumura Shorin Ryu.

ahh ok, then you understand why if I had to give up one of the sets of kata i would give up the pinan before the kusanku katas. but really would never give up either if I could help it :jediduel:

 

[chinto]

If it has not been brought up yet: The Pinans were developed from the Kusanku kata.

Yep, actualy I did bring that up earler, but its nice to have some one else who knows the same thing say it. but also it turns out he may have been thinking I was refering to some sort of version of kusanku that is more modern in formulation or something. that is what is in a later post of his. so I think we are actualy pretty much on the same page all around perhaps.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

ahh ok, then you understand why if I had to give up one of the sets of kata i would give up the pinan before the kusanku katas. but really would never give up either if I could help it :jediduel:

Yep sure do