More TKD as SD
- Thread starter ATC
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And another:
MAist25
Blue Belt
I've seen a few different videos of this Lee Dong Hee guy and I really like what he does. I hope more Koreans start to think like he does and build off his ideas.
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If it's okay, I'd like to take a look at this video with an honest critique of what I like/dislike? What I think would be effective/ineffective, and why.
To begin with on the OP video;
The first example he provides I quite like. A short, low side kick to the leg/knee of the approaching attacker. This is a simple, gross motor skill that can be effective, not only in possibly stopping/injuring the incoming attacker but also offers a good set up for follow up techniques. It takes into account a realistic attacking movement by an aggressor. It also takes into account the reality that the defender may be going through an adrenaline dump/loss of manual dexterity in the extremities. Thumbs up.
At about the 16 second mark he has a couple of kicks with the same leg (left), one to the groin area and the second to the opposite leg. I like this as well since again, you're stopping the forward attacking motion of the aggressor as well as possibly causing damage and setting up for follow up techniques. Thumbs up.
At the 24 second mark he's using an in-fighting reverse elbow strike. Very big thumbs up on this as I'm all about elbow strikes and being in close to the attacker. As with the above it stops forward momentum, causes damage and sets up for follow up techniques. It is also gross motor i.e. nothing overly complicated or fancy.
I'll address more of the video later so that perhaps others can comment on their likes and dislikes. I do have a dislike I'd like to address/share. He's a great high kicker. That is fine for flash but for SD it is often fluff due to circumstances that are encountered outside of training. For example, he's very probably warmed up and stretched out and is wearing loose fitting clothing while standing on a flat, level, non-slippery surface. The equation can change if/when any of those variables change. I applaud his low, non-flashy and practical low kicks. Although it's TKD, for purposes of SD I can forego the higher kicks. During a chaotic fight you don't want to be a one-legged fighter on an unstable platform. Only other negative I can offer at the moment is that I am not an advocate of kicking with the top of the foot or instep. I'm a shin kicker because it is stronger and can be conditioned whilst an instep really can't be. But I do like the direction he's taking in the other regards.
Okay, I'm going to tread carefully here as to not offend anyone. The young woman is obviously talented. So I'm not taking away from that. However, there is a basic problem with the video that other arts are just as guilty of...all the attackers are polite enough to take their turn in the attack. That isn't real life in any way, shape or form. I don't know if the video is only suppose to be showing various applications in a setting that allows for some flow or if it's for full on SD. If the later it isn't SD, it's an exercise in choreography. It's pretty but not practical or realistic. Individually some of what she's doing is fine. But CQC has many effective ways of dealing with multiple attackers that aren't polite enough to wait their turn. This isn't meant to be a bust on TKD, I've seen many other arts guilty of the same thing.
Kong pretty much covered most of what I had to say.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Not only that but she made no attempt to move out of the circle and was just content to stand there and receive her polite attackers from all directions. Nice sound effects though.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I'll preface this by saying I'm actually fairly fond of both videos… as far as what they're showing. But here's my thing… I see absolutely no SD in any of either clip at all. It's not just the high kicks that KSD noted… it's the entire set up.
To that end, I'd like to as ATC what he sees in the clips that classifies it as "SD".
Eh, I'm not fussed by that, really. The set-up of the clip really looks like an exploration of some of the potential applications of the actions of the poomsae…. to that end, choreography, staggered attackers etc is not only to be expected, it's essential. But really, it's little more than an ad… and it's fine for that quite easily. Again, though, really nothing to do with SD.
I agree with Mr Parker.
The first clip riffs on Taekwondo Poomsae principles applied in a combative context. It feels more improvisational than the second clip, but still has been rehearsed with prior agreement.
The second clip is a demonstration of how Poomsae motions could be directly applied in a combative context. If conditions were very much in your favour.
For anyone with a solid Taekwondo education, there's nothing new in these clips, they are only literal explicit expressions of principles that are most often non-literally and implicitly transmitted. I am surprised at how popular this kind of clip is becoming via social media - it illustrates that people aren't perhaps picking up and thinking through what is not literal and explicit in what they train.
Perhaps that's due to a difference in eastern and western cultures. It's certainly noticeable here in Germany that people are highly literal in their understanding of what they are taught. I quite often find myself having to help people read between the lines, and to improvise based on a principle.
But yeah, neither of the things shown in the video is the same as real self defence. Some useful combative ideas, but nothing more.
It could also be argued that assigning direct application to a Poomsae movement is missing the point of principle somewhat.
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The first clip riffs on Taekwondo Poomsae principles applied in a combative context. It feels more improvisational than the second clip, but still has been rehearsed with prior agreement.
The second clip is a demonstration of how Poomsae motions could be directly applied in a combative context. If conditions were very much in your favour.
For anyone with a solid Taekwondo education, there's nothing new in these clips, they are only literal explicit expressions of principles that are most often non-literally and implicitly transmitted. I am surprised at how popular this kind of clip is becoming via social media - it illustrates that people aren't perhaps picking up and thinking through what is not literal and explicit in what they train.
Perhaps that's due to a difference in eastern and western cultures. It's certainly noticeable here in Germany that people are highly literal in their understanding of what they are taught. I quite often find myself having to help people read between the lines, and to improvise based on a principle.
But yeah, neither of the things shown in the video is the same as real self defence. Some useful combative ideas, but nothing more.
It could also be argued that assigning direct application to a Poomsae movement is missing the point of principle somewhat.
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MAist25
Blue Belt
No offense, but I disagree. Not a huge fan of the second video, but the first video is a great example of how poomsae should be trained, and he does a great job finding the practicality in its movements. By the tone of your post, you sound like one of these people who believes that none of the techniques found in forms are what they seem, but everything is actually a hidden movement, typically a joint lock, throw, or takedown technique.
While looking at every sequence in poomsae literally is not a good idea, as you will be hard-pressed to find many applicable self defense techniques that way, looking at them completely non-literally is not good either, as people sometimes try wayyyy to hard to look past the simplicity of techniques or movements, and create some technique/sequence that in every way looks, "forced".
If that's what comes across, I apologise, it is not what I meant. I don't believe there are many hidden secrets. I do believe that the guy in the first video is applying principles taught by the poomsae, although in a way that sticks fairly close to the literal sequences of motions therein. What I meant is that the poomsae teach principles, like blocking in every conceivable direction, striking in every conceivable direction and evasive footwork, weight manipulation, grabbing to augment a technique, and so on. It's not out of the realms of imagination to take those and similar principles and string them together in an improvised but realistic way. People get so focused on the application having to be like the form that they lose sight of the main goal: overwhelming and overcoming the opponent.
To me the poomsae is like a musical scale. You can use it to learn to play music, but, it is not music. To make music, you have to take the scale and do something special with it to make it music: make it fit the context. The principles poomsae communicates are the same. Poomsae says: here's a rich set of ideas and examples of how our art's main principles can be combined. Now go play with those principles and see what context they fit and work in. Improvise, maybe play a couple of notes that aren't in the scale but still work in the context.
I am not suggesting creating techniques or sequences, only using the principles illustrated via the poomsae to act first or respond to an opponent's motion in a way that is appropriate to the context.
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MAist25
Blue Belt
I actually think he does exactly what you are talking about. I re-watched the clip and to me, I dont really see where he "sticks fairly close to the literal sequences." In fact, I think he does quite a lot of using the principles of the poomsae and "strings them together in an improvised and realistic way."
Ok, I'll say it another way: the movements he uses are absolutely recognisable as to which step of which poomsae they are. I would perhaps be a little looser in my application of principle. I agree that he's using principles too though, and given that the aim of the clip is to show applied poomsae, it makes sense to stay close enough to the source material that it is obvious to see which movement it is.
However, my main point was, I'm puzzled by people's reactions to these clips for example in the Youtube comments, and on Facebook. Like they never understood that this was Taekwondo and like suddenly this is something new. Makes me wonder what they have been practicing, how they view and understand it, and how they might ever hope to apply it.
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