More questions about Hapkido Forms

[Kittan Bachika]

Awhile back I posted this thread on Hapkido forms.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83583

Then I found these forms.

I have seen a lot of this before awhile back. But I am confused. Is this a Hapkido form or is this Kuk Sool Won?

If it is KSW why did they call it Hapkido or was it Hapkido first?
So confusing.

 

[dancingalone]

Interesting stuff. The kicho hyung in the first video is a close cousin to the kicho I learned when I dabbled briefly in Kuk Sool Won years and years ago. I am aware KSW has changed their forms over the years - I imagine the kicho on the video posted is probably an older version.

You can search on the net for information if you are really interested.... suffice it to say that hapkido, Kuk Sool (there are several Kuk Sool groups, the largest is Kuk Sool Won), and Hwa Rang Do all have close ties to one another. Both the founders of Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do studied for a time with Choi Yong Sool although I believe his influence is minimized in their official histories. And they also knew and practiced with one another as part of some hapkido organization in Korea that ultimately failed.

Anyone who has viewed the hyung from both Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do can see the 'striking' similarities. Not sure why most hapkido groups eschew forms... Perhaps someone knowing the answer can enlighten us.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anyone who has viewed the hyung from both Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do can see the 'striking' similarities. Not sure why most hapkido groups eschew forms... Perhaps someone knowing the answer can enlighten us.

Mainly because hapkido traditionally never had any. Hapkido is taught in partnered drills. In our school, we learn a set of techniques for the following applications:

1. Set of eight same side wrist grabs
2. Set of eight cross hand wrist grabs
3. Set of seven cross hand wrist grabs with the uke grabbing with the off hand as well.
4. Set of six both uke's hands grabbing both wrists
5. Set of six sleeve/collar grabs from the front
6. Set of ten clothing/hair grabs from the front
7. Set of seven clothing/hair grabs from behind
8. Set of seven hugs/chokes both from the front and from behind
9. Set of six defenses against punching attacks
10. Set of seven defenses from a seated position

Within these seventy two 'kata' if you will, are the prinicples within the system. So far as I know, aikido does not use forms either, and likely for the same reason; all of the techniques are taught via partnered kata rather than via solo forms.

We utilize separate punching, kicking, knee, elbow, and knife hand drills for strikes, as well as various footwork drills. After first dan, we introduce defenses against multiple people, empty hand knife defenses, defense against the knife with a rope or belt, empty hand defenses against a gun, defense with a cane, unarmed defense against a sword, and weapon work.

The only 'forms' that we have are weapon forms: bo, nunchucku, sword, spear, and kwando. These are, to my knowledge, culled from other systems.

I suppose that hapkido could be taught using forms, and certainly, there are groups that do use them. But traditionally, hapkido does not utilize forms. If a school uses forms, they have either been culled from another source or they have been created for either that school or that organization.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I suppose that hapkido could be taught using forms, and certainly, there are groups that do use them. But traditionally, hapkido does not utilize forms. If a school uses forms, they have either been culled from another source or they have been created for either that school or that organization.

Indeed. The forms in KSW come from the Korean "kung fu" traditions preserved by the founder(s).

I believe some koryu jujutsu sytems do have kata within them. And judo did too for a time, although it seems to have fallen into disuse.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Indeed. The forms in KSW come from the Korean "kung fu" traditions preserved by the founder(s).

I believe some koryu jujutsu sytems do have kata within them. And judo did too for a time, although it seems to have fallen into disuse.

Do you mean solo kata, which is what most people think of when they hear the word 'forms' or do you mean partnered kata?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Both really. The partner forms are probably more common, but I have heard of solo forms as odd as they might seem in a grappling system.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Both really. The partner forms are probably more common, but I have heard of solo forms as odd as they might seem in a grappling system.

Just to qualify, when I say that there are traditionally no "forms" in hapkido, I mean solo forms, not partnered kata/hyung.

Hapkido, like aikido, has partnered kata, though these are not standardized between all hapkido federations, and possibly not within each individual hapkido federation, though I presume that most, like ours, has a preset curriculum of partnered kata/drills/hyung/whatever term you'd like to use.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

To be clear we are talking about solo forms/Kata. Not two folks working through their techniques.
The big difference is that partner drills are tactile learning. here is a technique, now learn how it feels. Learn how to do it and how to do it on differnt body styles and learn how to apply its intricate parts. Unbalancing, pain compliance, throws etc.
Single person Kata may teach movement which is all nice for punch block but has little value in applying locks where feel is 90% of the art.
Hapkidos entire philosophy boils down to applying its 3 core principles. Hwa Won Yu.
How can Kata teach you harmony of energies if there is only one. How can Kata teach you water if there is no other to envelope. I agree you can do Circles but you cant apply them. So Kata does not fit the core principle.
My opionion which is worthless is similar to what was hinted above. Some of the early players had studies arts with forms and when they formed their own schools added them. Thats why only a few specific groups do forms.

 

[oftheherd1]

I mentioned in another thread that some years ago, in Korea, my GM related there was some interest in forms, but it never came to fruition in the Korean Hapkido Association. As far as I know, it never has. As mentioned, it is difficult to learn the feel for techniques in a form. Those TKD forms that have Hapkido techniques, often don't even know what they are, saying a particular move is art or something.

 

[puunui]

To be clear we are talking about solo forms/Kata. Not two folks working through their techniques.

Japanese Martial Artists call the two man preset techniques to be "kata" as well as the solo stuff. I think that anything that is prearranged qualifies as a kata.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Japanese Martial Artists call the two man preset techniques to be "kata" as well as the solo stuff. I think that anything that is prearranged qualifies as a kata.

Not sure of other JMA have special terms for two person kata. In kendo, partnered kata are called kumitachi, which roughly means crossing swords if I remember correctly. I suspect that it is all just called kata.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Not sure of other JMA have special terms for two person kata. In kendo, partnered kata are called kumitachi, which roughly crossing swords if I remember correctly. I suspect that it is all just called kata. Daniel

I was driving past a park and saw a small group wearing kimono practicing with all sorts of isoteric weapons. There was a sickle with a ball attached to a chain, and that sort of thing. The students were doing prearranged attack and defense drills. So I approached the instructor, who is semi famous and has written books on the subject. I asked him what the students were doing, and he answered "kata".

 

[dortiz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dortiz
To be clear we are talking about solo forms/Kata. Not two folks working through their techniques.

Japanese Martial Artists call the two man preset techniques to be "kata" as well as the solo stuff. I think that anything that is prearranged qualifies as a kata.

Correct. Thats why I said two folks WORKING through techniques. Two guys doing staged weapons attacks and counters is still kata as are the arm to arm conditioning drills etc.
Hapkido drills are feel and flowing. Just trying to separate that from the schools that are introducing single person kata.

 

[JJK HKD]

I always pictured forms as practicing a basketball game without an opponent or ball. Three dribbles, turn, fake then shoot. Get the rebound and put the shot up again ... all without an opponent or ball ... PS, a lot of the people in hapkido have experience learning forms in other styles. Best Things about hapkido, and there are many. #1. Realistic Techniques. #2. No Forms. ...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I always pictured forms as practicing a basketball game without an opponent or ball. Three dribbles, turn, fake then shoot. Get the rebound and put the shot up again ... all without an opponent or ball ... PS, a lot of the people in hapkido have experience learning forms in other styles. Best Things about hapkido, and there are many. #1. Realistic Techniques. #2. No Forms. ...

Depends on the school, but generally speaking, there are no solo forms.

However, as was mentioned earlier, any prearranged drill with two partners qualifies as 'kata.' If one wishes to make a distinction between working through a technique and performing it as a kata, then I feel that you're getting into splitting hairs, though the discussion might be interesting.

 

[Raymond]

I'm not an expert on hyung or forms, but the problem with forms in an art with so much grappling is that you can't really practice grappling in solo. As mentioned, Judo forms exist but have largely been neglected for many years.

I don't even think of "two person forms" as a "form" at all. I like to use the more modern idea of those being "drills". That said, my Hapkido instructor did teach me forms, and we had forms required for rank promotion. However, the forms were very short (typically 12-16 movements) rather than the 25-30+ moves that are found in more traditional forms. And there were only 5 of them (one per colored rank we used). They were mostly to give the youth class something to practice outside of class without having the urge to punch and kick objects, or throw and joint lock their little siblings

Many Hapkido schools promote the lack of forms in their advertising since forms are increasingly being seen as outdated and unnecessary. That's not my personal opinion, just an observation. I'm more in the middle and think forms do have a good use, but that emphasis should be on live training and sparring.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't even think of "two person forms" as a "form" at all. I like to use the more modern idea of those being "drills".

There is a fine line between the two. Whether I consider them forms or not (I do for the sake of discussion) is largely academic; form or drill, I'm practicing them and teaching them.

What makes a two person form a form is it is practiced in a specific way, with specific footwork and motions, and is not changed or modified based on what the partner is doing. And the partner is generally compliant to a great extent.

So a two man form centering on a 'wrist grab/escape/wrist lock' may be performed in a specific way so as to teach the principles of leverage, movement, and technique in the idiom of hapkido. Once the student has this methodology down, she may drill doing escaping wrist grabs and applying wrist locks in a variety of ways.

One is the essence to communicate the principle through a particular application (form) the other is the expanded application of that principle (drills).

Of course, if you feel differently for the sake of discussion, that's fine too. Regardless of what you call it, it's the transmission of the skills that is important, not the semantics of form vs. drill.

 

[Raymond]

Sorry I was kind of short on time when I replied. I do view things in Hapkido like a flow drill that many schools practice a two man hyung. Where you start at a predetermined grip or hold, and transition from joint lock to joint lock in a pattern as specified by the organization's curriculum or the instructor.

 

[Instructor]

We've been experimenting with some solo drills that focus on deflection and interception but not joint manipulation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We've been experimenting with some solo drills that focus on deflection and interception but not joint manipulation.

Given the plethora of strikes in hapkido, there is no reason that forms couldn't be used. Grapples could be placed in key places, represented by footwork and shadowing with the hands, but I don't see any benefit to doing so other than personal preference; the art was never taught that way by Choi or Ji.