As a fellow WMAA member I say Welcome! Mr. Hartman is an extremely knowledgeable martial artist and an exceptionally good instructor as you no doubt know. His focus is strongly on learning, spreading, and enjoying the art.
More Modern Arnis Groups!
- Thread starter Datu Tim Hartman
- Start date
As a fellow WMAA member I say Welcome! Mr. Hartman is an extremely knowledgeable martial artist and an exceptionally good instructor as you no doubt know. His focus is strongly on learning, spreading, and enjoying the art.
As far as I can tell--and this has been discussed in great detail on this board--we have:
IMAF (Jeff Delaney)
IMAF, Inc. (Randi Schea)
MARPPIO (Remy P. Presas)
IADLF (Anding de Leon)
These have all claimed headship (in the last case, of a new, breakaway system rather than of Modern Arnis). Other important Modern Arnis organizations include those run by Mr. Hartman, Mr. Inocalla, and now Mr. Worden. To the best of my knowledge none of these last three have claimed headship of Modern Arnis. Other major players include, in no particular order, Dieter Knuttel, Dan Anderson, Roland Dantes, and the MOTTs.
Again, searching this board will turn up much information on this subject!
Hi
this is a very tricky subject.
It is for example very hard to veryfy the statement of Mr. Delaney, because he manages the website where his own sucessorship was proclaimed. Rand Shea sure has his reasons, together with the Motts, to split from Delaney, a topic that was deeply dicussed in this forum.
Regarding some other prominent Modern Arnis players and I will not mention any names, because it is not my job to reveal these things, I have infomations from 4 different sources, that facts are different than the public displayed opinion in several forums.
I will not go into detail, but there are reasons for many of the prominent players, that they do not want to be headed by someone who is their junior and I can understad Tim, but also others, in that regard.
Anyway, the problem is, that hardly anybody has all the facts and usually one only displays the facts, that places oneself in a good light, which is a very human behavior.
The problem is, that the Professor never built up a successor over the years, that was accepted by all. (Nobody did it btw: Morihei Ueshiba, Yip Man, Ed Parker, Gichin Funakoshi and many others, nobody created a sucessor, that could keep the system together as one)
The newly created title of the Master of Tapi-Tapi, the fact, that he did not appoint the highest people in his system to lead the association created and creates disturbances with the lower belts who do not understad this decision, the higher ones who have a even harder time to belive it and by some who just don´t belive that he did it this way anyway, maybe due to facts, that are unknown to the public.
There is a lot of discussion about words too. One of the most lively one is: what does "active" mean?.
For myself, I started Arnis in 1978, been graded 6th Dan and Datu in 1996 and I have been hardly seen in the US on seminars. Does this mean I am not active? I teach about 20 Modern Arnis seminar a year (I started teching Arnis seminars in 1980) and I have produced at least 80 - 100 Modern Arnis black belts, ranked up to 5th Dan directly by the Professor and I have students of students who already produced black belts. Others might have a similar vita, just not known to most of you.
But again for myself, I am not and I will not throw my towel in the ring and say "I am also the sucessor". (Aren´t we all who carry on the legacy of the Professor?)
I also don´t want to be in competition with any of the other high ranked Modern Arnis players, because many have merits in their own way.
We only can guess about the reason for the different decisions, that Jeff Delaney, Randi Shea, Kelly Worden, Remy P. Presas, Tim Hartman etc. did, but the more information will come to the surface, the clearer some of these decisions will be understod.
Anyway, I think we all know that there will never be the ONE unifying person art the top of Modern Arnis again. That was the Professor. These shoes are too big for all of us.
I think the best way we can honor the Professor is by training well and teaching well, producing good students and even better black belts, so that people that follow us in the art will find the same love and fascination for Modern Arnis, that we found.
Sincerely
Datu Dieter Knüttel
this is a very tricky subject.
It is for example very hard to veryfy the statement of Mr. Delaney, because he manages the website where his own sucessorship was proclaimed. Rand Shea sure has his reasons, together with the Motts, to split from Delaney, a topic that was deeply dicussed in this forum.
Regarding some other prominent Modern Arnis players and I will not mention any names, because it is not my job to reveal these things, I have infomations from 4 different sources, that facts are different than the public displayed opinion in several forums.
I will not go into detail, but there are reasons for many of the prominent players, that they do not want to be headed by someone who is their junior and I can understad Tim, but also others, in that regard.
Anyway, the problem is, that hardly anybody has all the facts and usually one only displays the facts, that places oneself in a good light, which is a very human behavior.
The problem is, that the Professor never built up a successor over the years, that was accepted by all. (Nobody did it btw: Morihei Ueshiba, Yip Man, Ed Parker, Gichin Funakoshi and many others, nobody created a sucessor, that could keep the system together as one)
The newly created title of the Master of Tapi-Tapi, the fact, that he did not appoint the highest people in his system to lead the association created and creates disturbances with the lower belts who do not understad this decision, the higher ones who have a even harder time to belive it and by some who just don´t belive that he did it this way anyway, maybe due to facts, that are unknown to the public.
There is a lot of discussion about words too. One of the most lively one is: what does "active" mean?.
For myself, I started Arnis in 1978, been graded 6th Dan and Datu in 1996 and I have been hardly seen in the US on seminars. Does this mean I am not active? I teach about 20 Modern Arnis seminar a year (I started teching Arnis seminars in 1980) and I have produced at least 80 - 100 Modern Arnis black belts, ranked up to 5th Dan directly by the Professor and I have students of students who already produced black belts. Others might have a similar vita, just not known to most of you.
But again for myself, I am not and I will not throw my towel in the ring and say "I am also the sucessor". (Aren´t we all who carry on the legacy of the Professor?)
I also don´t want to be in competition with any of the other high ranked Modern Arnis players, because many have merits in their own way.
We only can guess about the reason for the different decisions, that Jeff Delaney, Randi Shea, Kelly Worden, Remy P. Presas, Tim Hartman etc. did, but the more information will come to the surface, the clearer some of these decisions will be understod.
Anyway, I think we all know that there will never be the ONE unifying person art the top of Modern Arnis again. That was the Professor. These shoes are too big for all of us.
I think the best way we can honor the Professor is by training well and teaching well, producing good students and even better black belts, so that people that follow us in the art will find the same love and fascination for Modern Arnis, that we found.
Sincerely
Datu Dieter Knüttel
I think that sums it up very well. Thank you sir.
:asian:
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Hi Dieter,
I've read some of your posts and like them. Two added points about no one being to fill the Prof's shoes. 1. Many of us have had previous training in other arts. When Prof. Presas began hsi seminar teaching inthe US and other countries, he advertised MA as "the art within your art." Our own training and application reflects out previous training so there ends up being various "schools" and associations of MA. This is neither good not bad and has historical precedent in both Pa Kua Chang and Tai Chi as well as the Preying Mantis system and so forth. 2. We all have our favorite aspects of MA. Bram Frank is clearly a knife blade man. Kelly has branched out into the use of Sibat (long pole) as well as the knife. I'm sure if you look at all of the Prof's leading students, you'll find there are certain preferences from person to person.
None of us match the Professor. Perhaps someday, with 45 years under our belts, we will.
Yours,
Dan Anderson :xwing:
PS - Wow! Who added all these Smilies? I lovem.
:lasma:
I've read some of your posts and like them. Two added points about no one being to fill the Prof's shoes. 1. Many of us have had previous training in other arts. When Prof. Presas began hsi seminar teaching inthe US and other countries, he advertised MA as "the art within your art." Our own training and application reflects out previous training so there ends up being various "schools" and associations of MA. This is neither good not bad and has historical precedent in both Pa Kua Chang and Tai Chi as well as the Preying Mantis system and so forth. 2. We all have our favorite aspects of MA. Bram Frank is clearly a knife blade man. Kelly has branched out into the use of Sibat (long pole) as well as the knife. I'm sure if you look at all of the Prof's leading students, you'll find there are certain preferences from person to person.
None of us match the Professor. Perhaps someday, with 45 years under our belts, we will.
Yours,
Dan Anderson :xwing:
PS - Wow! Who added all these Smilies? I lovem.
:lasma:
Could you expand on this Mr. Anderson? How is this situation reminiscent of the history of Praying Mantis, Tai Chi, and Pa Kua?
Hi Dan,
I think you misunderstood a little what I ment.
I never ment that anybody is a copy of the Professor. He clearly supported people finding their individual way of moving. I too had some 10 years of martial arts training in different styles before I started with Arnis.
But that is not the point. I think there are many technically good people. What I ment with "his shoes are too big for all of us" is, that he had a way of keeping different people together. People, that would have split with each other long ago stayed together because of him. He had a way of unifying the people, because they respected him and his abilities, but also the way he treated them. But he earned this respect over the decades. He made a name for himself and not by saying "I am the sucessor of ..." or "I am the highest ..." or "I am the best".
He just taught what he loved to do and this way he was respected by the people.
I just got an audio cassette from Kelly Worden with a few interviews of him with the Professor and besides the interesting content, it was amazing, how humble his words were and how soft spoken he was. I have been in his "fangs" during his lock flows and I have had the pleasure of practicing Tapi-Tapi with him, so I know that his techniques were not as soft as his voice. But it is one thing to hurting your students during the training. Almost everybody can do that. But it is another thing to give them at the same time the feeling, that each and every one is special to him and that he did not let his parters feel the pain to show them how good he was. At least I never had the impression.
He just showed them "how to do" and motivated them "you can do it".
Anyway, these were the things that I ment when I said, that his shoes are too big.
And for the Modern Arnis of the Professor had so many facettes, nobody had all of them. Therfore I acknowledge Datu Kelly Wordens efforts with the World Modern Arnis Coalition (WMAC), to bring people of different phases of Professors path together, so that one can learn from all of them. And I am sure he does not only talk about bringing them together.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see, where Modern Arnis will go in the future and I am proud in being a part of it.
Datu Dieter Knüttel
I think you misunderstood a little what I ment.
I never ment that anybody is a copy of the Professor. He clearly supported people finding their individual way of moving. I too had some 10 years of martial arts training in different styles before I started with Arnis.
But that is not the point. I think there are many technically good people. What I ment with "his shoes are too big for all of us" is, that he had a way of keeping different people together. People, that would have split with each other long ago stayed together because of him. He had a way of unifying the people, because they respected him and his abilities, but also the way he treated them. But he earned this respect over the decades. He made a name for himself and not by saying "I am the sucessor of ..." or "I am the highest ..." or "I am the best".
He just taught what he loved to do and this way he was respected by the people.
I just got an audio cassette from Kelly Worden with a few interviews of him with the Professor and besides the interesting content, it was amazing, how humble his words were and how soft spoken he was. I have been in his "fangs" during his lock flows and I have had the pleasure of practicing Tapi-Tapi with him, so I know that his techniques were not as soft as his voice. But it is one thing to hurting your students during the training. Almost everybody can do that. But it is another thing to give them at the same time the feeling, that each and every one is special to him and that he did not let his parters feel the pain to show them how good he was. At least I never had the impression.
He just showed them "how to do" and motivated them "you can do it".
Anyway, these were the things that I ment when I said, that his shoes are too big.
And for the Modern Arnis of the Professor had so many facettes, nobody had all of them. Therfore I acknowledge Datu Kelly Wordens efforts with the World Modern Arnis Coalition (WMAC), to bring people of different phases of Professors path together, so that one can learn from all of them. And I am sure he does not only talk about bringing them together.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see, where Modern Arnis will go in the future and I am proud in being a part of it.
Datu Dieter Knüttel
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Hi Guys,
First an answer to Arnisador -
Tai Chi was founded in the Chen village. This type of Tai Chi is different than mostly what is taught in the US. The founder of the Yang style (Yang Lu Chan I believe) learned the Chen village art and moved to Beijing. There he taught the more affluent and lazy locals and came up with the softer and slower moving Yang set. A guy named Wu learned from the Yang family and taught his variation with much smaller stances. Sun Lu Tang was a noted Pa Kua and Hsing I master before learing Tai Chi. He synthesized rpinciples of each of the three internal arts to form the Sun style of Tai Chi.
Pa Kua founder Chang San Feng first taught his art to established martial artists, both strikers and grapplers alike. They, in turn, formed their own schools which use the same principles yet have different solo sets and applications.
Many of the senior students of Prof. Presas had backgrounds in other arts prior to learning Modern Arnis. We will end up with, I feel, different focuses, in our teachings while adhering to what Prof. Presas taught us.
:soapbox: So Sez the Historian
To Dieter -
Hey Deiter! Fast reply and hello. It's been a while since we met in Germany. I hope all is well with you. Thank you for clarification of what you meant in your post. Often there is not enough space or time to put in writing what could be verbally spoken. You mention an audio cassette that Kelly has and it's "interesting content." Than makes me curious. What is the interesting content? :apv:
Good hearing from you and the smilie means nothing. I just found it interesting.
Yours,
Dan
First an answer to Arnisador -
Tai Chi was founded in the Chen village. This type of Tai Chi is different than mostly what is taught in the US. The founder of the Yang style (Yang Lu Chan I believe) learned the Chen village art and moved to Beijing. There he taught the more affluent and lazy locals and came up with the softer and slower moving Yang set. A guy named Wu learned from the Yang family and taught his variation with much smaller stances. Sun Lu Tang was a noted Pa Kua and Hsing I master before learing Tai Chi. He synthesized rpinciples of each of the three internal arts to form the Sun style of Tai Chi.
Pa Kua founder Chang San Feng first taught his art to established martial artists, both strikers and grapplers alike. They, in turn, formed their own schools which use the same principles yet have different solo sets and applications.
Many of the senior students of Prof. Presas had backgrounds in other arts prior to learning Modern Arnis. We will end up with, I feel, different focuses, in our teachings while adhering to what Prof. Presas taught us.
:soapbox: So Sez the Historian
To Dieter -
Hey Deiter! Fast reply and hello. It's been a while since we met in Germany. I hope all is well with you. Thank you for clarification of what you meant in your post. Often there is not enough space or time to put in writing what could be verbally spoken. You mention an audio cassette that Kelly has and it's "interesting content." Than makes me curious. What is the interesting content? :apv:
Good hearing from you and the smilie means nothing. I just found it interesting.
Yours,
Dan
Thanks for your reply Mr. Anderson. I see now what you mean. I do hope that some continue Modern Arnis in a mroe-or-less unadulterated fashion for the next generation! I fear however that while it will have a wide-ranging influence it will disappear as a distinct art with its own identity. I hope that I am merely being pessimistic here but that is my prediction. Without a strong and well-respected person at the top, that all Modern Arnis practitioners acknowledge as as senior to them in knowledge and ability and with a vision of where to take the art, I expect that it'll disappear as the art within others' arts. Not for a generation or two, of course, but that is my concern.
I don't believe that any of the MOTTs can fill this role; they aren't even particularly high-ranked compared to the datus and I believe a number of others (in the Philippines especially). Perhaps Dr. Presas can pull it off; I have never met him. It may be an impossible role to fill. Perhaps Wally Jay is correct to have four distinct successors in line. I don't know.
Luckily there are still many great practitioners from whom I can learn; Mr. Hartman recently gave me an interesting insight on an extremely basic technique, for example. I am going to keep learning for a long time, and those who study arts that have adopted some Modern Arnis will benefit too. But the art itself? We have too many groups, with too many people at the top. We have Mr. Delaney's group, Dr. Schea's group, Dr. Presas' group, Mr. Hartman's group (of which I am a member), Mr. Inocalla's group, Mr. Worden's group, Mr. de Leon's break-away group, Mr. Knuttel's German group as well I believe as other European groups that are not affiliated with any of the previously mentioned organizations (please correct me if I am mistaken Mr. Knuttel--I believe that your group is independent of the IMAFs and other world-wide groups), let alone how Mr. Jornales, Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Anderson, and other senior individuals fit in. It's a mess! We have too many groups and too little leadership, I think.
I don't believe that any of the MOTTs can fill this role; they aren't even particularly high-ranked compared to the datus and I believe a number of others (in the Philippines especially). Perhaps Dr. Presas can pull it off; I have never met him. It may be an impossible role to fill. Perhaps Wally Jay is correct to have four distinct successors in line. I don't know.
Luckily there are still many great practitioners from whom I can learn; Mr. Hartman recently gave me an interesting insight on an extremely basic technique, for example. I am going to keep learning for a long time, and those who study arts that have adopted some Modern Arnis will benefit too. But the art itself? We have too many groups, with too many people at the top. We have Mr. Delaney's group, Dr. Schea's group, Dr. Presas' group, Mr. Hartman's group (of which I am a member), Mr. Inocalla's group, Mr. Worden's group, Mr. de Leon's break-away group, Mr. Knuttel's German group as well I believe as other European groups that are not affiliated with any of the previously mentioned organizations (please correct me if I am mistaken Mr. Knuttel--I believe that your group is independent of the IMAFs and other world-wide groups), let alone how Mr. Jornales, Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Anderson, and other senior individuals fit in. It's a mess! We have too many groups and too little leadership, I think.
Hi Dan,
yes, it has been a while and for me here in Germany, everything goes fine.
Regarding the audio tape he talks about the development of Modern Arnis and for he mentions me and our group in Germany twice, it was interesting to hear what he said about us.
Regards
Dieter
yes, it has been a while and for me here in Germany, everything goes fine.
Regarding the audio tape he talks about the development of Modern Arnis and for he mentions me and our group in Germany twice, it was interesting to hear what he said about us.
Regards
Dieter
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Dear Arnisador,
At this time I do not have a group I am leading except for the students in my on school. Yes, many leaders. BUT there are also a lot of students as well. Will Modern Arnis become lost? Remy Presas WAS Modern Arnis and he is lost to us on a day by day basis. We have his books, tapes and personal memories. The art will not be lost, I don't think although it will alter as time goes on.
Yours,
Dan :cheers:
At this time I do not have a group I am leading except for the students in my on school. Yes, many leaders. BUT there are also a lot of students as well. Will Modern Arnis become lost? Remy Presas WAS Modern Arnis and he is lost to us on a day by day basis. We have his books, tapes and personal memories. The art will not be lost, I don't think although it will alter as time goes on.
Yours,
Dan :cheers:
