Monks and training

[destructautomaton]

watched buddhas lost children again which a very good doc on a monk who trains kids in muay thai along with religion and beomcing young monks themselves, was wondering if there were other Thai monks teachingmaybe krabikrabong or the bare knuckle stuff like what was shown in the film? or is that now gone completely?

 

[tenzen]

Not sure about teaching and Passing it on in this manner. But there are monks who still use the old systems.

I think blackdiamondcobra would be best one to elaborate on this, he's actually met a few of them.
I met one breifly here in ameriica. He was a khmer and he knew the old stuff. He even built a wat here in america the name of it slips me at this moment. But I'm sure v can answer this the best.

 

[VASI]

interesting i thought there was one other monk teachin in thailand but have not heard much about monks training people in thailand

 

[tenzen]

I believe the monk luang pu has a few students in chaiya, but he is mostly known for his sak yant work. Could that be the monk you are talking about vasi?

 

[Fede]

There is an ex monk who recently disrobed and who has taught chaiya and KK.
It's sadly turning into an egomercial venture as there are foreign vultures
who are trying to build him up with videos and incorrect info. It looks like he's fallen
into the wrong hands....

I believe it is possible that there are monks teaching and training, you just
don't hear about them for obvious reasons.

 

[tenzen]

Yes sadly the entire chaiya community is trying to cash in. And the quality of instruction, as I'm told, is sub par. Its all about that dollar, or baht in this case. Lol. But the true monks who have the old systems like you said , you won't hear about because its not for commercial purposes to them its for survival. In some places I have read that their temples come under attck frequently so the systems are vital to their survival.

 

[Fede]

Wow, that's the exact opposite, teaching and keeping the arts alive for their original purpose, and in secrecy because they save lives. It's mostly all upside down now!

 

[VASI]

There was anoher monk in bangkok not the chaiya one but he was only teaching a few peeps on the side but i lost track of him.
i guess not many really teachin fighting anymore in thailand

 

[VASI]

its a bit nuts with chaiya dudes
they think they are god's gift but i think people are catching on to them and not botherin
to listen anymore

 

[tenzen]

I agree vasi. Chaiya has been exposed. And its for the exact reason you stated, anytime you hear from them they tell you about how great their system is and no one else knows how to fight. But then they don't fight, and when they do its not a great performance and there can be no chaiya seen. The real chaiya masters probably don't teach anyone and those would be the class mates of kru tong, not his students because he didn't show them how to use it.
I wish we could see more of the korat style. That would be awesome.

 

[VASI]

seems the chaiya dudes got a bit deflated by tons of neg reaction but hopin some of the quiet better chiaya guys show up some day

but id like to know somethin on the monks why they used to teach and dont teach too much anymore.

 

[tenzen]

Too many students want to use what they learn for the wrong reasons. Personal gains and such. They want to make money and the monks believe in a simple existence. This is only my opinion of course but it seems to fit. I was told once that martial arts are only for those who have the right heart, meaning they would not be greedy or intentionally try to hurt someone. Both of those reasons are covered in fighting for money, which is what most students there are wanting to do. I'm sure if you showed them that you really wanted to learn and were going to be responsible with what you learn they will show you.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

You guys brought a couple of interesting points and the conversation does veer into Chaiya Boxing as you will see.

Monks in Thailand at one time taught a spectrum of things at the wat(or temple) including religion, martial arts, sometimes medicine, etc and could be looked at as local schools scattered throughout the kingdom.

" In the past the Wat was the centre of community, particularly of education. The Wat belonged to everyone in the community. The term buad rian clearly indicates the relationship between wat and people in terms of education......Nevertheless, for all intents and purposes, the role of monks as educators has long ceased. "

You could consider this early period "premodern Thailand" with modernization beginning under King Chulalongkorn in the late 1800s into early 1900, where things began to radically change throughout the kingdom. In the late 1920s, Old style bare knuckle considered brutal and barbaric was banned and the new sport Muay Thai rose up fusing westernized rules of sportsmanship, gloves, timed rounds, and a structure of rules.

Monks and their role in society was more greatly defined and monks now concentrated on teaching religion and nothing more.

When we talk of Muay Chaiya, a monk brought this form of bare knuckle fighting to Chaiya and spread it from there. It rose to be a formidable fighting style and produced many of the top bare knuckle fighters of the era. So the very existence of Muay Chaiya is credited to a monk teaching and spreading it from the South of Thailand.

One of the younger students of the late Kru Tong who lived with him after his own father died, became a monk. He felt that it was in the tradition of Muay Chaiya that it was fair for a monk to teach it in private since that was how it began. I trained with this monk for a long time and he taught everyone for free and people in the community supported him though many disagreed and looked down upon what he was doing as wrong especially teaching women. He recently disrobed and returned to worldly life. But he taught for many, many years in different parts of Thailand.

I think there is a certain romantic notion attached to all of this. People automatically say its better and/or superior and that is not always the case. The monks are focused and have tremendous amount of energy. Sometimes, monks have no choice but to defend themselves as in the South of Thailand, where Muslim terrorists attempt to burn down temples or kill the monks after dark in Muslim heavy areas. I met monks in the south very skilled in weapons and muay. In Burma, many of the monks i knew and trained with practiced martial arts and many died in the sad government crackdown against them and now they are heavily monitored since the protests initiated by the monkhood against the government.

But if you are specifically addressing Thailand then you can understand why you see so few monks devoting some part of their teaching to fighting either muay thai or any other form of thai martial arts. If they do, they will generally do it in private as not to draw attention to themselves but as a personal extension of their own teachings.

 

[tenzen]

Thanks for clarifying this for us v. I brought up the chaiya thing because it is most recognizable to most of us. You seldom hear about the other systems whether it be them dying out or strictly thriving in private. I do wish there was more information about the other systems we don't hear much about, I would really like to see,experience and learn korat and lop buri.
I have heard that lopburi doesn't exist anymore only derivatives of it, is there any truth to that?

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

I cant really say what will happen with the other systems.

The next most viable and practiced system is lanna(northern style). You have it in the original forms, phys ed form and dance/ceremonial form still left and still actively practiced and taught.

I believe though from experience this process(of control and manipulation of information) might be a repeat of the krabi krabong one. People believed samai was the last living grandmaster of krabi krabong and just kept propagating it until it came into popular belief and written in stone and nothing was further from the truth. I mean we are still trying to correct that mistake because it buried the search and the link to the vital great krabi krabong masters because no one believed they were still alive. Many still think its one system, there is only phys ed and not a deeper older system. Now a replay i think with bare knuckle has begun not only with the teachers but the pressure and support for the phys ed muay boran to overwrite and outdistance many of the old teachings.

I think the chaiya syndrome will have the same effect as the situation with samai. its available and they say they are superior, there is tons of vid footage, writing. One of the more famous chaiya masters actually was talking about korat and it was all wrong, so wrong that i couldnt believe he was even talking like that. They are very different systems in structure and execution. People wont bother to go further and dig. People need to understand the evolution. Who the great bare knuckle fighters were because many were from Korat and the korat style. The last great real bare knuckle fighter and teacher who propagated a system into the modern era was Kru Bua. Whats nice about the real systems is that they are simple and direct. Function comes through basics. You get ready to fight. Fighting is the byproduct of the training. In the old days, the fighting taught you how to build the arsenal. When it moved away from fighting, the systems seem to bloat like chaiya adding this tech from korat, adding phys ed and material from kru kimseeng etc. Then they argue its pure. Its insanity because the truth is right there fully documented.

The korat people seem content for the time being to remain as they are but I believe they will come out soon in small ways. A couple of the teachers are compiling all the writings on the system and putting together a good historical flow for it. Kru Bua's son is still alive and we visited him and he gave his blessings to the opening of the system by certain people who trained with his father. I think the situation with the chaiya people made some people weary in thailand so time will tell what happens.

There are a couple of teachers who know portions of Lopburi as well as the philosophy and techniques. Ta Sao still exists, Phraya Pichai muay as well. They are taught and practiced. Systems like sakon nakon are survived. Its shame great masters like Kru Kimseeng is not adequately represented at all and his style has practically vanished and is only in small pockets. Also there might be alot more surviving but no one is looking. I still think there is undocumented teachers and systems in Thailand.

But it all in the end depends if the teacher or teachers want to go out into the open, teach, etc.

Don't know what to say beyond this. So much has become just commerce that a great distortion has replaced the truth. Adding to the confusion greatly is the muay boran chop ups of systems so people actually think they know korat, chaiya, lanna but its just phys ed bits and pieces poorly diced together to sell to the gullible public.

I mean thats my opinion. Many dont agree with me. In my new vanishing flame report, i cover some of the problems getting to the root of ancient wrestling in se asia and india. If you read that you can see some of the problems specifically in thailand i ran across.

 

[tenzen]

Yeah I read the new report and I see what you mean. Maybe one day I will win the lottery or something and be able financially to make it out there and dig for the info I seek. Hell if I do win it ill contact you first v and we can dig together, I really appreciate what you do. As do a lot of others.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

I personally feel bad. There are a tremendous amount of sincere people who want to really learn and gain access but they have to go through this twisting winding roadway of insanity that is really unnecessary especially in this day and age. Some also like to swim in the waters of conjecture, hearsay, myth and whatever. Many dont have any room for actual reality, intelligent research and hardcore training.

 

[Fede]

As always, thank you for sharing your research with us. I think it stands out because it's not commerce and twisted facts, it actually straightens things out.
It's a shame things are being lost and replaced with new creations or additions, it does no good to the arts and to the old teachers. I meaqn the Aj. Samai example you mention speaks for itself. It's like a bad remake of a movie without even mentioning the original properly.
Luckily Lanna is rooted with the old forms and techniques still practiced especially in the north, but as you saiy other systems are less practiced and may face extinction.

 

[tenzen]

You should not feel bad v, I mean really what can you do? Except for what your already doing which is great and more than enough. Your only one person. One day hopefully it won't be too late but one day I will get there and find what I'm looking for, I just hope I can do it some justice. I plan on going through the proper research and training. The phys ed will do me no good. I want the actual fighting, the stuff that works, I have no interest in doing demos and such. Solid contact is the way to go. Thanks again v.

 

[VASI]

thanks bro for all the info
i see now why we dont see the monks out there training people!