Mom needs help is this guy Legit.

[Beth Parker]

My name is Beth and Im a single mother of 2 boys. I promised them martial arts lessons. I went to the martial arts school and the instructor tryed to sell me a contract for a year of lessons [PAY WHETHER U COME OR NOT] My problem is im ignorant concerning martial arts and as I read his bio online some red flags came up concerning him. The instuctor is very young and calls himself Soke,Professor, and 10nth dan of Kickboxing. I thought that was a sport and not a style also he is a member of several questionable organizations that this forum lists as sort of fradualent. I dont know enough about any of it to make a decisicion and i sure want my sons to learn a legitimate system if im gonna pay that much money. His url is http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/pages/profcale.html I would really appreciate if any of u martial artist could look at this and give me some advice before i render a blind decision

Thanks so much

Beth Parker

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ms. Parker,

Thank you for posting here and welcome to our board!

Many of the things you have mentioned are red flags.

They are mainly Advertising and marketing tools. Yes, for some it is an ego thing, yet for others they have to have something to market.

In my opinion, having one of these would be fine, now having all of them? This guy would have to be really good and be able to prove it.

So, I will recomend that you not only ask here, you also ask the parents of your childrens' friends. See if any of them know fo this guy. Also go to another school and check them out and see if you feel more comfortable there. Even if this guy is for real, and I am not saying he is, if you do not feel comfortable going there, then go somewhere you do feel good about. Go watch a kids class of this guy and also the competition, audition them, by watching them and seeing how they and the school instructors work with the kids.

The great thing about a free market is that you get to choose. The bad thing is that you sometimes do ot know the quality of the product you are buying

I wish you much luck

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The title of "Soke" is a big red flag. Its been mentioned repeatedly here and elswhere that its use as a title if wrong, unless you are a-Japanese and b-involved in a Japanese art, amongst other things.

There is also a thread at E-Budo concerning the Korean Yudo
& Hapkido Assn. which is fronted by a Mr. Stern.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4650

A search on Mr. Stern will reveal -alot- of interesting information.

Personally, I'd steer clear of the guy....Too many high belts, and awards and titles for someone young...or even old, IMHO.

:asian:

 

[Aegis]

If he's young and calls himself a soke and a 10th dan in anything, I'd personally stay well clear, as the number of legitimate 10th dans around is miniscule compared to the number of fraudulant ones. The contract is another no-no for me. I always join clubs where I pay by the lesson, with a small extra charge for a year's insurance.

As an aside, try asking this guy where he obtained his professorship, as it is illegal for anyone to use the title professor unless they have such a title from an accredited university. He could actually get in legal trouble for claiming otherwise. I only add this because I have seen very few professors under the age of 45-50, so if he's young and claiming a professorship, I'd inquire.

Hope this was helpful in some way.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Aegis
If he's young and calls himself a soke and a 10th dan in anything, I'd personally stay well clear, as the number of legitimate 10th dans around is miniscule compared to the number of fraudulant ones. The contract is another no-no for me. I always join clubs where I pay by the lesson, with a small extra charge for a year's insurance.

As an aside, try asking this guy where he obtained his professorship, as it is illegal for anyone to use the title professor unless they have such a title from an accredited university. He could actually get in legal trouble for claiming otherwise. I only add this because I have seen very few professors under the age of 45-50, so if he's young and claiming a professorship, I'd inquire.

Hope this was helpful in some way.

The illegal proffessor title is a European or at least English and German issue. Here in the states it is not so, unfortuantly in some cases.

 

[Beth Parker]

Thank you so much for looking into this. It seems by your post it pays to shop around and do some research before spending money. Is kick boxing a sport or a style if it is a sport can u even be dan ranked in it. I think I will continue to look for a different school because this person claims his P.H.D CAME THRU CONTINUING ED UNITS WHAT EVER THAT MEANS ONCE AGAIN IM SORRY FOR MY LACK OF KNOWKEDGE

 

[Aegis]

Apologies Rich, I thought the title professor was one you needed acreditation to use anywhere. My mistake.

 

[Michael Billings]

Here is his URL

http://www.whitetigerkenpokarate.com/

Not much info there however.

It looks like he is "founder" or "president" of both of the organizations International martial Arts Council of America (IMAC) and United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame, the two affiliate organizations listed on his home page. (I just followed the links.)

 

[pknox]

This does sound kind of suspect. According to the site, his PhD is in "Martial Science" -- if I remember correctly, I remember seeing ads in the back of Black Belt where you could send for a degree with that exact same name - I'm not saying he did that, but it seems suspicious.

Also, per his site:

"White Tiger Kenpo Karate is a complete street effective martial art founded by Professor Marty Cale in 1982."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the art of White Tiger Kenpo founded by John McSweeney, an early Parker BB?

I guess it's possible that someone could come up with the same style name, but if he had studied Kenpo for any length of time, wouldn't he had heard of McSweeney? It would be like if I said I founded Goju-Ryu, and when asked about Yamaguchi, said, "Oh, not THAT Goju - mine is different, but it comes from the same place." Again, a bit suspicious.

BTW, here's where I pulled my style info from:

http://kenpothoughts.com/saviano/default.asp

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Beth Parker
Thank you so much for looking into this. It seems by your post it pays to shop around and do some research before spending money. Is kick boxing a sport or a style if it is a sport can u even be dan ranked in it. I think I will continue to look for a different school because this person claims his P.H.D CAME THRU CONTINUING ED UNITS WHAT EVER THAT MEANS ONCE AGAIN IM SORRY FOR MY LACK OF KNOWKEDGE

Kickboxing is a sport; I have never heard of getting Dan ranked in it.

Unfortunatily, there are no set "standards" for credentials in the Martial Arts world, and there is no one out there regulating martial art credentials. It's not like the educational community (college, university), unfortunatily.

The mistake that people make is that they assume that there is some sort of regulated set standard, so they are inclined to believe whatever they are told. It pays to do your research, so good job seeking out this board and asking the right questions.

As to his credentials, they sound fabricated.

Have a nice day!

 

[Ginsu]

Mr. Billings also posted an interesting check list in this thread linked below. This should hopefully be of some help to you.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9414

Best of luck.


Ginsu

 

[arnisador]

Professor Marty E Cale, Soke, PH.D.

This is what people say to parody a self-promoted, self-important martial arts "master" (see the main page of E-Budo). To be honest, it reads like a joke. I would be very wary.

I'm glad you asked! Good luck finding a good school for your kids.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Aegis
Apologies Rich, I thought the title professor was one you needed acreditation to use anywhere. My mistake.

Aegis,

No Apologies my friend. If I came across as upset, I apologize back at you.

I jsut know it is different betweent he cultures. And it is the natural thing to assume that other first world countries would have the same logical rules for similar issues. Yet, this is the new world and Titles and all are not protected by law per se.

Good information though.

 

[Disco]

Sorry to be so informal. It may help if we knew what part of the country you are in. I'm sure there would be somebody within your area on the boards that could be of greater assistance. As for the person you are seeking information on, I would refrain from any dealings with him. First rule, never sign any long term contracts. A 3 month contract is acceptable in my opinion but nothing long term. Any school that you may be interested in, should offer some free lessons for evaluation. Another consideration would be the age of the boys and what you want for them in martial arts.

Hope this will be of some help. Everyone here is available for any assistance that we can render.

Respectfully
Disco:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

A GENERAL CHECK LIST BEFORE JOINING ANY NEW DOJO

Beware the hidden costs - Get full disclosure before you sign any contract! (Once the contract is signed, it's often too late.) I don't require contracts!


1. Is the instructor CPR and first aid certified?_______Yes __________No.

2. Do you charge belt testing fees?______Yes _______No.

3. Do you have a price list showing each test fee?_______Yes _______No

4. Are students required to test at given intervals? _______Yes _______No

5. On the average how often is a person tested?________

6. Do you have written requirements for each belt/stripe test? _______Yes _________No

7. What is the total charge for all belt/stripe fees - from White through 1st Black!

8. What is the belt test fee for (just) Black Belt?

9. Is sparring/freestyle required? ________Yes _______No If yes:

10. Total cost of all required sparring/safety equipment?

11. Must all equipment be bought through the studio? ________Yes_________No

12. Is contact allowed in sparring? ________Yes _________No

13. Is kicking to the head allowed? _________Yes _________No

14. Is kicking to the head mandatory? _________Yes ________No

15. Is kicking to the head in tournaments allowed _________? Required__________?

16. Is breaking of boards required? ____Yes ____No - Required for testing?____Yes ___No

17. Is the studio full time, professional _________? Part time___________?

18. What are the hours _____________________?

19. How long has the studio been open _____________?

20. Must I sign a contract ________Yes ________ No If Yes:

21. Can I get a copy to take to my attorney for review before I sign it? ____Yes ____No

22. Contract: for how long _________?

23. Contract: for how much ? Does the contract state what I am getting for this money? ____?

24. Are payments made to a third party ? _________Yes ________No

25. Are instructors "NATIONALLY CERTIFIED" thru a recognized organization?_____Yes ______ No

26. Is the instruction Group only? __________ How many groups per week ________?

27. Do I have to pay for extra groups ___________? How much _________?

28. Does the basic course include:

29. Private instruction/Personal Trainer? _______Yes ________ No

30. If yes --- is it every week _______Yes ________ No _________?

31. If no: Is private instruction available at an extra cost? ________Yes ________No

32. If yes -- How much per hour? ____________

33. Do you use Youth for Instructors? _________Yes ________No

34. Do you award Black Belts to Youths? ______Yes ______No If yes: Starting at what age? _______

35. What is the average time for a youth to get a Black Belt? _________

36. Do you primarily teach;

37. Self Defense ____________? % of total ____________ How many techniques per belt ______?

38. Sport Karate/Tae Kwon Do___________? % of total

39. Is the studio matted for rolling and falling ___Yes____No?

40. Do you teach ground fighting/grappling____Yes _______No?

41. JuiJitsu/style ___ ShootFighting ___ Other ____________?

42. Am I required to go to tournaments? ___Yes___No --- If Yes -- How many ______?

43. If I am sick or go on vacation do I still have to pay for lessons I did not or could not take ________?

44. For youth - What about cancellations due to: Little league? ____ Soccer____?

and to give credit where credit is due:

Orig posted by OFK

I think you found this on Pat Munk's Georgia Tracy Kenpo school site. It's a great list.

http://www.georgiakenpo.net/info_pages/school_check_list.htm

Another decent can be found on About.com's martial art's faq.

http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/blfaq.htm

__________________
Old Fat Kenpoka

This should get you started.

Good luck, -MB

 

[Cruentus]

Nice list!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Disco
Sorry to be so informal. It may help if we knew what part of the country you are in. I'm sure there would be somebody within your area on the boards that could be of greater assistance. As for the person you are seeking information on, I would refrain from any dealings with him. First rule, never sign any long term contracts. A 3 month contract is acceptable in my opinion but nothing long term. Any school that you may be interested in, should offer some free lessons for evaluation. Another consideration would be the age of the boys and what you want for them in martial arts.

Hope this will be of some help. Everyone here is available for any assistance that we can render.

Respectfully
Disco:asian:

Your outdated feeling about how a school should be run and operated is no burden to lay on a layperson. Contract schools will outlast any mom and pop school. The number of students they retain will make the experience more positive all around for everyone. They will have better equipment, more instructors, and the security that the other fellow students aren't just bums off the street itching to hurt as many people as possible before they flake away.

 

[arnisador]

Please discuss contract schools in this thread.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Disco]

Mabey you have had success in dealing with contract schools, but there are many who haven't. If you review, I said short term contracts were OK. Long term can have negitive impact to both parties. You are entitled to your viewpoint and opinion. Next time you disagree with someone, perhaps you could voice your position a little softer, without casting disparaging remarks. I will defer anything else to the new thread (Contract Schools).
:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Disco
Mabey you have had success in dealing with contract schools, but there are many who haven't. If you review, I said short term contracts were OK. Long term can have negitive impact to both parties. You are entitled to your viewpoint and opinion. Next time you disagree with someone, perhaps you could voice your position a little softer, without casting disparaging remarks. I will defer anything else to the new thread (Contract Schools).
:asian:

What? .... my fingers whispered across the keys.