"Modern Arnis: The Next Generation"

[Bob Hubbard]

Good questions. What were the techniques called by Remy? What I've heard, is that there wasn't really a common description, just "you do this". I don't know if you can count changing the anyos, as they weren't FMA but karate kata spliced in. Are there "real" filipino forms in MA?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Good questions. What were the techniques called by Remy? What I've heard, is that there wasn't really a common description, just "you do this". I don't know if you can count changing the anyos, as they weren't FMA but karate kata spliced in. Are there "real" filipino forms in MA?

Bob

I think you have to count the Anyos. The Anyos were created in the Pillippines and predate Remy coming to the U.S. GM Ernesto's Kombatan anyos look similar (karate like) but are different, however those too were developed over there, so why wouldn't these be "real" filipino forms?

What is your defintion of a "real filipino" form?

With respect
Mark

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'd say "real" filipino forms would have a native filipino origin, not adapted from another art's forms. Isa appears to only have minimal differences from a shotakan (sp) form for example.
(See http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3046&highlight=anyo+kata )

They may have been created in the PI, but, are they truely filipino? Or are they JMA with a slight tweak? Thats my question here. Also, are there 'native' forms that were taught "way back when" that were dropped in favor of these?

I believe that both Remy and Ernesto have karate backgrounds, so that may have influenced them when they were "putting the parts together".

It's been my feeling, and I've heard others comment on it as well, that the MA forms don't have the same "feel" or "flow" as the other parts of the system.

Hope that makes sence...been crunching numbers for 2 days. LOL!

 

[Mark Lynn]

I'd say "real" filipino forms would have a native filipino origin, not adapted from another art's forms. Isa appears to only have minimal differences from a shotakan (sp) form for example.
(See http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3046&highlight=anyo+kata )

1) They may have been created in the PI, but, are they truely filipino? Or are they JMA with a slight tweak? Thats my question here. Also, are there 'native' forms that were taught "way back when" that were dropped in favor of these?

2) I believe that both Remy and Ernesto have karate backgrounds, so that may have influenced them when they were "putting the parts together".

3) It's been my feeling, and I've heard others comment on it as well, that the MA forms don't have the same "feel" or "flow" as the other parts of the system.

Hope that makes sence...been crunching numbers for 2 days. LOL!

Bob
1) Who knows, why would you need forms? I mean from the "native" point of view. I've seen Dan Inosanto talk about "filipino" dances and how they incorperate moves that can actually be disarms strikes etc. etc. I've seen Kelly Worden demonstrate the Anyo's in this fashion and it made sense to me.

Forms I think were designed to teach a large group of people techniques and have a way for them to remember techniques. Later on they could be used to teach different techniques, concepts, principles etc. etc. but that takes a longer period of time. So if the brothers had a karate background they might have adopted that format from which to structure their systems to teach a larger group of people. Also because the Japanese karte systems had katas they might have felt they needed the anyos to compete commercially. Point is I don't know, but I don't think they should be discarded because they don't have the same feel as other parts of the art.

2) I agree

3) But I think they could have a more fulid/flow type feel, again I only wittnessed Datu Worden perform a couple fo the Anyos in a more fulid motion, and then he deomnstrated the application of the Anyos in this manner. I was impressed.

Sorry Bob but I missed your first point.
I'd say too "real" have a native filipino orgin, however I believe they have a real filipino orgin, in that they were created by filipinos, in the Phillippines. While they might have been adapted from a Japanese karate system (or influenced) they still were created by the brothers. Take espada y daga it was adapted from the Spanish (while we may argue this), the point is that EYD in MA doesn't look like any Spanish fencing system now. It was adapted and brought in, same thing with the anyos.

Remy used the anyos as a base from which to teach from, but unlike the karate systems it was a more make it your own type of thing instead of the "be like me". I've had gripes about this in the past in that at the camps and such I saw a guy do Anyo Isa in a Preying Mantis format and Remy liked it. MY gripe was that I thought it should be standardized but who knows maybe making it your own thing leads to a broader understanding like Datu Worden interpertation of the forms.

Mark

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Exactly. I'm not saying discard them, I'm saying if you change them, tweak them, do them with a different flair, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I prefer to do them with a smoother flow, less "karate snap" feel to them, as it just feels more 'natural' to me. I've heard thats how Datu Worden does them, but haven't yet managed to see him in action.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Bob

I think you have to count the Anyos. The Anyos were created in the Pillippines and predate Remy coming to the U.S. GM Ernesto's Kombatan anyos look similar (karate like) but are different, however those too were developed over there, so why wouldn't these be "real" filipino forms?

What is your defintion of a "real filipino" form?

With respect
Mark

Mark,

I think the Stick forms or Anyo Baston should be considered. There is documentation in the Books published in the PI for those forms and the reprint of the Pink Book here in the states.

There is no documentation of the empty hand forms before coming to the States. If there is I would truly like to see it. Those I know who trained in the 70's, the empty hand forms were rolled out after the stick forms were already part of the curriculum.

The empty hand forms can be considered as well, and the JMA influence is there, although you can execute them with a FMA feeling, some would not consider them a part of the training. In our Club in Flint, we recognize that GM Remy Presas rolled out 6,7 & 8 much later then even the mid 80's where some people still had not seen Form 5. Although the Empty Hand forms 1 through 5 had been around since the late 70's (79) to the early 80's.

I think they are part of the curriculum, but the weight people assign them will very.

:asian:

 

[DrBarber]

Simply asked
how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers

Hello tshadowchaser,

This is another question that you have asked that will go unanswered by most people on this and everyother board. In part the answer can not be offered because there has been no agreement on what are the critical core concepts and foundations upon which Modern Arnis was built and taught by the late Founder/GM. Until the core concepts are identified we do not have a starting place for the discussion of when and how far someone has deviated from the "Ideal format of Remy Presas Modern Arnis". That in turn means that all of the discussions about who is working closest to and furthest from the ideal is meaningless.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DrBarber]

If you cannot preserve it intact, if the continuing changes move it farther and farther from the original root, why continue to call it "Modern Arnis"?
I ask the same question of many arts. Why continue to call EPAK EPAK, when the influence of the founder is 20 years past, and all the different opinions on the right way to do even the base techniques? The only people who could claim to call it "Presas Arnis" are probably the family. The rest might contemplate name revisions. Maybe take a small note from the JMA. Call it, "Modern Arnis, Bobo Style" (assuming that the clown here is Bobo. I prefered Bingo myself, and Krusy was good with a pie, but I digress.)


All clowning around aside here Doc, with this, even this smartass can agree:

Quote:
In reality, those who try to preserve and clone Remy Presas Modern Arnis will over time actully succeed in killing it through stagnation. Those who follow the "make it for yourself' and "the art within your art" will actually preseve and expand the art, but will succed in losing the founder over the next coupleof generations, especially as those who actually knew Remy, the man, die off.

Those people who want to see the art grow and prosper will generally succeed in their efforts because of their sincere committment to their objective. The people are are out to "market" Modern Arnis, ride on Professor's coat tails, build organizations and profit from something that they did not create through name association routines will ultimately pass from the scene without making a significant impact.


:cheers:

Thank you, Bester. Your comment and honesty are most appriciated.
Maybe we should meet and discuss this and other things over coffee.
I'll buy the danish.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DrBarber]

No one seems to be able to simply answer this question.

What concepts, techniques, and skills make up the fundamentals of MA that should present for someone to call it MA?
If you change the anyos, 12 strikes, siniwalis, applications....are you still doing MA? If you change the words that RP used to refer to drills, movements and skills are you veering from MA? How far is too far? Until a simple list of 'fundamentals' is established, this discussion is going to lead to confusions. We all know where confusion takes the threads here. Confusion=Assumption=criticism=defensiveness/insecurity=flame=suspension/banning......

Healthy discussions should start with a common ground.

What makes the 'leaders' leaders? Sure they lead, but where to, why and how do they lead.

Leader does not automatically mean ethical and positive. Some people lead through fear, intimidation and lies. Others lead through exploration, fairness and by example. What makes leaders of MA 'leaders?' and not just 'top students' that started businesses and advertise?

Hello RickRed,

Nice comments and well put, perhaps you and I should discuss these things over coffee as well. Once again, I will buy the danish.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DrBarber]

Simply asked
how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers

Hello TShadowchaser,

I'm planning to be in the Boston area next year for the Modern Arnis Tipunan. When that date is finalized, perhaps we could meet and discuss some of these things over breakfast. Let me know if that is a possibility. Thamks.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Guro Harold]

In the article, "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation" (Black Belt Magazine, August 1998, by Paul O' Grady, M.S.), he wrote of the next generation being: Dan Anderson, Rick Lee Ward, Eric Alexander, Jaye Spiro, Tim Hartman, and Michael Donavan.

Who are the people listed above, what is their current contribution to Modern Arnis, and who do see as the up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?

Ok, it's been 12 years since this article has been written and about 5 years since this thread was originally created, so now, in your opinion, who are the new up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?