"Modern Arnis: The Next Generation"

[Guro Harold]

Mod Warning:

Any post that does not productively add to this topic with substance will be tossed.

-Palusut
MT Senior Moderator

 

[DrBarber]

Things seem more focused on organizations these days than individuals--the two IMAFs, WMAA, MARPPIO, etc.

HI Jeff,

There is a logical and understandable reason behind that development. There isn't anyone with the late GMs personality and force of presence
who can carry the art on their back as he did. When he was alive the IMAF was wherever he happened to be at a given moment in time. When
any/every charismatic leader has disappeared from the scene, then the inevitable organizational breakup occurs. The fallout organizations with their individual leaders try to take root. Some will survive and prosper, some will not.

The most important thing that should follow from all of this shuffling and re-shuffling is the emergance of a couple of solid teaching curriculm that allows the art to be taught, renewed and adapted to meet the new contingancies. If the patty-cake approach to Modern Arnis becomes the in-vogue thing and organizational loyalty dominates over good, solid and effective training, essentually the at will shrink and become a novelty. The organizations that will prosper are going to be those dedicated to hard practical applications of the principles and concepts that Professor dveloped over his long teaching career in both the Philippines and the Western World.

There are already people outside of the art who are critical of some of the things that they have seen in the video clips on this and some other forums. The American Modern Arnis Associates, the Dog Brothers and Sayoc Kali organizations are direct and viable competition to Modern Arnis because they are working to "make it and keep it real".

A good number of people from this forum have gone over to the American Modern Arnis site and downloaded volumes of video clips, but no one has acknowledged the material or posted a review. The counts at the AMAA site don't lie. The problem is obvious and we needn't dwell on it here - wrong thread.

If people are not willing to work together, share information and give credit, Modern Arnis will splinter still further and become a series of isolated organizational groups with little or nothing in common beyond the name used. It has been lamented on several occassions on this forum that the participation from the other Modern Arnis groups is limited to non-existent... why would that be the case if Professor were really so important to everyone?

There is a great deal more that I could post, but until some questions, both mine and those of others, already out there are answered there is no need to post any more than I already have on this thread.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob,

You've got quite a double standard going in your reponse. Whose 'thing' was Remy doing? Are you telling us that Modern Arnis can only be done as Remy did it?

Nope. Remy was doing his own thing. Doing your own is fine, however, "Modern Arnis" is in most usage attributed to Remy. Doing your own is fine, and it may in fact be based off of Remys art, but, once you move more than a little bit beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his. At some point, it stops being "Remy Presas Modern Arnis".

With regard to some of the folks who split off, a good number of them are in fact solid and productive martial artists.

Think I said that somewhere, if not, let me agree here.

Simply because you do not know them, have not trained with them or heard of them, does not in any way invalidate their contributions to Moden Arnis. Given that you have a very short and limit history within the art, perhaps you would do do well to broaden your perspectives before making such glittering generalities within your posts.

I don't need to know them, nor train with them, but they should show up somewhere. There may be excellent players in the PI, or heck, in a swamp in Georgia, but what good is being the best of the best, if no one outside a 20 mile radius knows you exist? Being the best is one thing, but being a leader is something else. Leaders lead, and when talking about an art, that requires some significant level of visibility and general awareness.

As to broadening my perspectives, I've been doing that, and will continue to do so. It's part of why I run so many different forums, and am active on so many others as well (though more often as a lurker lately)

I'm not sure where you were going with you comment about Rich, Paul and Arni, so some clarification would be appricated. I appriciate your contributions to Modern Arnis via this forum, however, there is a still a great deal that you could and should learn about Modern Arnis and then demonstrate through some new video clips.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

New clips are coming, the rust removal is taking time. LOL!
As to the comments, sorry, I cut myself off. Comment should have continued "..maybe? as I've had the benefit of banging with them and watching them take time to share at various events and camps."

Sorry, I've been rather distracted this week.



Sidebar - The AMAA videos are linked to on the MT video library. There are several excellent clips there.

 

[RickRed]

Nope. Remy was doing his own thing. Doing your own is fine, however, "Modern Arnis" is in most usage attributed to Remy. Doing your own is fine, and it may in fact be based off of Remys art, but, once you move more than a little bit beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his. At some point, it stops being "Remy Presas Modern Arnis".


Leaders lead, and when talking about an art, that requires some significant level of visibility and general awareness.

.

How much is 'too much' if a person is changing Modern Arnis? What fundamentals should be preserved so that the "Modern Arnis" label is still real?

Leaders lead, true. What makes a leader different from someone that is a top artists? What qualities make a leader a leader?

 

[Dan Anderson]

1.How much is 'too much' if a person is changing Modern Arnis? What fundamentals should be preserved so that the "Modern Arnis" label is still real?

2.Leaders lead, true. What makes a leader different from someone that is a top artists? What qualities make a leader a leader?

Excellent questions!
1. I would think that the base art would be Modern Arnis and recognizable when seen in motion.
2. I'll let others answer that question.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A leader does just that, leads. In my opinion, from the front.
Leaders must be seen, must be heard.

As I said, there may be a guy on a beach in Cebu, or a swamp in Georgia who could whip us all, enmasse, without breaking a sweat, while reading a comic book...but if he never steps out of the unknown, he will never be a leader in the arts.

I think leadership and mastery are 2 seperate items.

As to how much? Good question.
What is traditional in FMA in founding your own art?

 

[Dan Anderson]

What is traditional in FMA in founding your own art?

Traditional in FMA is a bit of a misnomer considering the progressive history of the different arts.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisador]

As I said, there may be a guy on a beach in Cebu, or a swamp in Georgia who could whip us all, enmasse, without breaking a sweat, while reading a comic book...but if he never steps out of the unknown, he will never be a leader in the arts.

I think leadership and mastery are 2 seperate items.

A good and important point. Skill is important, but leadership affects many people, not just oneself.

 

[DrBarber]

Mod Warning:

Any post that does not productively add to this topic with substance will be tossed.

-Palusut
MT Senior Moderator

Hello Harold,

Would be so kind as to explain what you are referring to in this post. I don't want to run afoul of the admin group and forum rules, but I honestly can not determine what you are referencing. Thanks in advance.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Guro Harold]

Hello Harold,

Would be so kind as to explain what you are referring to in this post. I don't want to run afoul of the admin group and forum rules, but I honestly can not determine what you are referencing. Thanks in advance.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Hi Jerome,

The post in question was removed.

Best regards,

Harold

 

[DrBarber]

Nope. Remy was doing his own thing. Doing your own is fine, however, "Modern Arnis" is in most usage attributed to Remy. Doing your own is fine, and it may in fact be based off of Remys art, but, once you move more than a little bit beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his. At some point, it stops being "Remy Presas Modern Arnis".

Hello Bob,

You still have a glaring double standard with regard to Modern Arnis. Please explain where and when within the art one has moved "...more than a little beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his." I am curious as to exactly where is that line, that spot, that moment within that art the seperation begins and it becomes mine/someone elses art?

If I am going to do my own thing, why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"? If I am reading your comment correctly,
there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'! But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DrBarber]

How much is 'too much' if a person is changing Modern Arnis? What fundamentals should be preserved so that the "Modern Arnis" label is still real?

Leaders lead, true. What makes a leader different from someone that is a top artists? What qualities make a leader a leader?

Hey There, Rick,

Thus far no one has established what the core items are that make up Modern Arnis. These core items would be the things that everyone who claims to be doing the art must have mastered and uses/teaches. Included in my estimation would be the principles or foundation of the overall system itself, the techniques and the anyos. Once these items are identified, then it would be possible toi determine if and how far someone has moved away from the center point.

Leadership is an entirely different matter. Leadership involves qualitive functions not quanatative values/sums. Leadership styles are expressive, instrumental and modular in nature. In most cases a leader does not possess all three styles and characteristics in equal proportions. Some people who call themselves leaders do not have any of the characteristics in any shape, form or manner. They and many of their followers are confusing organizational titles with leadership qualities. Being the founder, grand master, president, chief instructor, datu or mott is not the same thing as being a true leaders of people. Titles are paper, leadership is behavior. The two things are not interchangable, regardless of what one might wish to believe.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hello Bob,

You still have a glaring double standard with regard to Modern Arnis. Please explain where and when within the art one has moved "...more than a little beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his." I am curious as to exactly where is that line, that spot, that moment within that art the seperation begins and it becomes mine/someone elses art?

Good question.
I'm not in posession of the knowledge I would need to decide that X is "preserving" while Y is "derived". Maybe the folks who were around Remy the last few years of his life, who were traveling with him, and had relationships with him would be able to identify what was the last revision of Remy's art?

If I am going to do my own thing, why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"? If I am reading your comment correctly,
there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'! But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Another good question.
"why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"?"
Marketing.

"If I am reading your comment correctly,
there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'!"
Very True. Each individual adds their own nuances to the art. Some seem to seek to remain as close to the last version they saw as possible, while others continue to train "forgotten" parts of the history, while others explore the roots and paths that Remy came from for deeper understanding.
The problem with these approaches is that the art doesn't seem to have remains "stable", as Remy reportedly kept tweaking as he went. So keeping a snapshot doesn't continue it's evolution, there must have been reasons why he dropped what he dropped, and as you explore, you eventually reach a point that he most likely wouldn't have, and so end up with a "cousin" to the original art.

"But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic."
No one. Remy was Remy. His experiences, and thought processes are now sadly lost to us.

We have 2 different IMAF's, both continuing their own visions of the art. We have Tim Hartman's WMAA curiculum, Dan Andersons MA80, American Arnis, American Modern Arnis, your program and easily a dozen others. All are wonderful tributes, all are wonderful systems. Yet, none are 100% pure "Remy Arnis", because all have in some way, shape or form, moved away from where Remy would have taken the art, had he continued to be with us.

You can not preserve it, because "it", as a whole, as a system, was, to my knowledge, never formally "writen out and documented". You can only seek to preserve what -you- experienced, or follow the path you think is best.

Define what "real" Modern Arnis is, define what constitutes "Remy Presas Modern Arnis", and maybe, we can then define just how much change must take place before it stops being "Remy" and starts being "you".

 

[DrBarber]

Good question.

I'm not in posession of the knowledge I would need to decide that X is "preserving" while Y is "derived". Maybe the folks who were around Remy the last few years of his life, who were traveling with him, and had relationships with him would be able to identify what was the last revision of Remy's art?

Another good question.
"why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"?"
Marketing.

"If I am reading your comment correctly,
there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'!"
Very True. Each individual adds their own nuances to the art. Some seem to seek to remain as close to the last version they saw as possible, while others continue to train "forgotten" parts of the history, while others explore the roots and paths that Remy came from for deeper understanding.
The problem with these approaches is that the art doesn't seem to have remains "stable", as Remy reportedly kept tweaking as he went. So keeping a snapshot doesn't continue it's evolution, there must have been reasons why he dropped what he dropped, and as you explore, you eventually reach a point that he most likely wouldn't have, and so end up with a "cousin" to the original art.

"But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic."
No one. Remy was Remy. His experiences, and thought processes are now sadly lost to us.

We have 2 different IMAF's, both continuing their own visions of the art. We have Tim Hartman's WMAA curiculum, Dan Andersons MA80, American Arnis, American Modern Arnis, your program and easily a dozen others. All are wonderful tributes, all are wonderful systems. Yet, none are 100% pure "Remy Arnis", because all have in some way, shape or form, moved away from where Remy would have taken the art, had he continued to be with us.

You can not preserve it, because "it", as a whole, as a system, was, to my knowledge, never formally "writen out and documented". You can only seek to preserve what -you- experienced, or follow the path you think is best.

Define what "real" Modern Arnis is, define what constitutes "Remy Presas Modern Arnis", and maybe, we can then define just how much change must take place before it stops being "Remy" and starts being "you".

Good Morning Bob,

Overall, I would have to say "A-men" to your post. Brother Bob, we are in the very same church and merely sitting in a different pew. Firstly please allow me to note that you are correct, you do not possess the knowledge to determine where preservation ends and deviation begins with regard to the concept of "Remy Presas Modern Arnis", however, you are not alone in that regard. Even very experienced Modern Arnis people are at a lose to make that distinction, because of the evolutionary nature of the late GM within his own creation. Mere mimicry is not sufficent. Copying motions is not the same as understanding the principles and reasoning behind the movements. Nor does mimicry allow one to determine where and when those same motions could be applied elsewhere.

The key to innovation and creative usage of Modern Arnis is to understand and utilize the core foundational principles of Modern Arnis as first taught by the late GM. Then one has to adapt them to fit their own movement style, skill based knowledge and personality. That was the "secret" behind the late GMs oft-repeated challenge to his students, "Make it for yourself!" In short, if someone can not make it for himself, then he can not do Modern Arnis effectively. He is merely mimicing motions. It really does not matter whether one is an early, middle or late era student of the late GM, if they are mimicing motions and following drill patterns via rote repetition, they are not going to be able to effectively use Modern Arnis as a self-defense system when the rubber has to meet the road.

"Marketing"? Surely you jest!? I am doing something that includes Modern Arnis as a core system, but I have never been exclusively a Modern Arnis guy. Even as a white belt under Sifu Don Zanghi, I was being cross- trained in Tracy Kenpo and Modern Arnis. Professor endorsed Sifu Zanghi's program and he extended that endorsement to me when I opened my program at Erie Community College in 1987. I have added Pancipanci Eskrima, Oliverez Pangasinan Escrima, Sayas-Lastra Arnis, Kalasag Kun Tao and Liu Seong Ch'uan Fa concepts to my program format since then. I also have Professor's written endorsement for the Kenpo-Arnis-Pancipanci segments in 1989. Why would I need to "market" Modern Arnis?

When I resigned from the IMAF in 1994, I stopped training with Professor because I dislike and refused to accept the BS that was swirling around the art then, why would I suddenly jump back into the fray and present myself as a "Modern Arnis instructor and organization leader" when I had already worked independently of the IMAF for 7 years prior to his demise? I have marketed the Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates program quite successfully and produced some outstanding black belt level students who stand out on their own. I don't need to "market" Modern Arnis nor try to attach myself to the late GMs coat tails. I am my own man. I 've encourage my students to stand beside me, NOT behind me.

I am very pleased to see that that we are in complete agreement regarding the fact that there was only one person who be Remy Presas.
It really does not bother me that people have different approaches to Modern Arnis. People should, in my opinion take what the want, need and what works for them from the art.

But that still leaves us with several very significant questions. What constitutes Modern Arnis? What are it's component parts and how should they be oprdered for instructional purposes? What are the underlying foundational principles upon which the entire system rests?

The people asking and answering these questions whether as individuals or in concert with others are not merely looking at snapshorts, they are using 8mm, 16mm, VHS and DVDs. Bob, I am speaking BOTH literally and figuratively.

In my opinion the above mentioned questions are unanswered in a larger public or collective sense. Therefore there are the arguments, the endless, passionate, senseless, ceaseless arguements that are going to go on forever in some arenas. These argumeents will go on forever because everyone is arguing about leadership of organizations ans succession. Very few of those people are working toward answering the really important questions that I have presented above!

There are a number of us who have very quietly discussed these questions among ourselves. We have arrived at some consensus positions. In the areas where we didn't agree, we smiled and said in effect, 'Ok, then you do it your way, because you really are in the same ballpark, just a different section, than I am.'

The Symposium that I organized was the first public step toward gaining some consensus positions. There were and still are some people who objected to that event being held. They did not attend and even now are unlikely to accept an invitation to participate in a similar event if someone were to propose it. There were people who attended the Symposium and then trashed the event because it did not meet their unstated criteria for success.

None the less, for a number of us who were at the event, we made the most of the opportunity to begin some discussions on a face to face basis. Those discussions have continued, quietly, via e-mail and phone calls. We have had opportunities to fill in knowledge gaps, gain understandings and share information. Good things are still bubbling up from the Symposium. It has opened new doors to other people and organizations besides those who actually attended. Networking is a powerful tool when used positively.

With regard to your mentioning of organizations that stand as tributes to Modern Arnis and the late GM, I will not speak on behalf of any other than the AMAA and my own Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis group. PG Tom Bolden, as mentioned by Dan Anderson in another post some time ago, does not replicate or promote Modern Arnis as taught by the late GM. His is a stand-alone orgaization that acknowledges the contributions and principles of Modern Arnis, but he has set his standards higher and includes the contributions of his other instructors, Master Florentino Pancipanci, GM Marino Tiwanak and the CHA-3 Kenpo System. Anyone who has seen the AMAA video clips can clearly see that the intensity, crispness and speed of the AMAA productions encompasses Modern Arnis concepts. However it is not the Remy Presas version of Modern Arnis.

As for my IEKA group, please refer to my earlier paragraph as to my position on Modern Arnis replications. I freely acknowledge the late GM
as a friend, mentor and influence, but I am not now, nor have I ever been exclusively a Modern Arnis adherent. To the extent that I followed Remy's example of incorperating different arts into my presentation, I am a student of his, but not entirely a student of Modern Arnis as my art form. Please understand that I am not now, nor have I ever made any claims about being a Modern Arnis "leader". I am a teacher, I know most the art as it was presented by the late GM, but I did not sign on to lead the system during his lifetime nor after his death.

Once again, Bob, you and I are in complete agreement. Remy did not write out a complete or even a partial Modern Arnis curriculum. I will add that he never established a HQ school in the USA, Canada or Europe, contrary to what he did in the Philippines. That will make it very difficult, though not impossible to define and explain what Modern Arnis is as a martial art. The fact that we have officially sanctioned video tapes of him from the mid-80's through 1999 that I am aware of and I am sure there are countless numbers of unofficial tapes floating around means that we could construct a very close approximation of what constitutes the "real" Modern Arnis system. Of corse to bring all of that tape together along with the people who studied directly under Remy and create a consensus version of the art is going to be difficult. Egos!

Herein is my suggestion. Don't worry about who is or is not doing the "real" Remy Presas Modern Arnis. In reality, those who try to preserve and clone Remy Presas Modern Arnis will over time actully succeed in killing it through stagnation. Those who follow the "make it for yourself' and "the art within your art" will actually preseve and expand the art, but will succed in losing the founder over the next coupleof generations, especially as those who actually knew Remy, the man, die off.

Those people who want to see the art grow and prosper will generally succeed in their efforts because of their sincere committment to their objective. The people are are out to "market" Modern Arnis, ride on Professor's coat tails, build organizations and profit from something that they did not create through name association routines will ultimately pass from the scene without making a significant impact.

As for myself, I will continue to teach at ECC for a few more years, train 3 - 5 more people to black belt levels, retire and let the whole thing get sorted out over time without further inputs me. My former students and training partners will carry on and hopefully I will have been successful in my efforts to pass on my understandings about Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis and life lessons.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Bester]

If you cannot preserve it intact, if the continuing changes move it farther and farther from the original root, why continue to call it "Modern Arnis"?
I ask the same question of many arts. Why continue to call EPAK EPAK, when the influence of the founder is 20 years past, and all the different opinions on the right way to do even the base techniques? The only people who could claim to call it "Presas Arnis" are probably the family. The rest might contemplate name revisions. Maybe take a small note from the JMA. Call it, "Modern Arnis, Bobo Style" (assuming that the clown here is Bobo. I prefered Bingo myself, and Krusy was good with a pie, but I digress.)


All clowning around aside here Doc, with this, even this smartass can agree:

In reality, those who try to preserve and clone Remy Presas Modern Arnis will over time actully succeed in killing it through stagnation. Those who follow the "make it for yourself' and "the art within your art" will actually preseve and expand the art, but will succed in losing the founder over the next coupleof generations, especially as those who actually knew Remy, the man, die off.

Those people who want to see the art grow and prosper will generally succeed in their efforts because of their sincere committment to their objective. The people are are out to "market" Modern Arnis, ride on Professor's coat tails, build organizations and profit from something that they did not create through name association routines will ultimately pass from the scene without making a significant impact.

:cheers:

 

[Guro Harold]

Link for Tim Hartman: http://wmarnis.com/resume.html.

 

[Guro Harold]

Link for Dan Anderson: http://www.danandersonkarate.com/dananderson.html.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Simply asked
how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers

 

[arnisador]

I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers

There's a long list of those who wish to be...part of the problem is that several orgs. are still focused on the notion that there must be One person at the top. That ship has sailed, in my opinion.

 

[RickRed]

Simply asked
how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers

No one seems to be able to simply answer this question.

What concepts, techniques, and skills make up the fundamentals of MA that should present for someone to call it MA?
If you change the anyos, 12 strikes, siniwalis, applications....are you still doing MA? If you change the words that RP used to refer to drills, movements and skills are you veering from MA? How far is too far? Until a simple list of 'fundamentals' is established, this discussion is going to lead to confusions. We all know where confusion takes the threads here. Confusion=Assumption=criticism=defensiveness/insecurity=flame=suspension/banning......

Healthy discussions should start with a common ground.

What makes the 'leaders' leaders? Sure they lead, but where to, why and how do they lead.

Leader does not automatically mean ethical and positive. Some people lead through fear, intimidation and lies. Others lead through exploration, fairness and by example. What makes leaders of MA 'leaders?' and not just 'top students' that started businesses and advertise?