Modern Arnis and Soke Boards

[bobquinn]

Bob H,
See the doors of comunication you have opened!
I'm not kissing up, I'm just speaking the truth!
We are making a great headway!

Bob Q

 

[MJS]

Folks,
You are all getting it wrong!
It's all about respect and I have yet to see in these post the respect for those that are our elders. It is obvious that the apple has not fell from the tree. Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also.

B Qui

Just so I'm reading this right...you're saying that regardless of someones actions, respect should still be given? not so sure I agree with that fully. Let me explain. I respect alot of people. I respect what many have done for the arts. But, you start to lose that respect when people start doing things that are not on the up and up. It makes the person look bad, it makes the art look bad and it makes the students of the art look bad.

And BTW, while I may not have trained much with Prof. Presas, my teacher Brian Zawilinski has. He's taught me quite a bit, and I thank God that I'm fortunate to have someone like him, practically in my backyard.

Mike

 

[bobquinn]

Mike,
Now you have done it, brought in another name. No where in any post has anyone mentioned Brian Z. On the other hand,of course if some has done or is doing something that you yourself know to be "not on the up and up" then of course you should speak your mind. I know how I was raised and would not in anyway speak low of anyone . Step on my foot and I will not tell you that you are stepping on my foot. You have a great teacher in Brian Z. and having known him many years ago continue to respect him.

Bob Q

 

[MJS]

Mike,
Now you have done it, brought in another name. No where in any post has anyone mentioned Brian Z.

Hey Bob,

Yes, you are correct. I was the person who mentioned Brians name. I did that in response to this:


"Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also."

I got the impression and perhaps it was the wrong one..as you know, misunderstandings happen all the time on the net. Anyways...I got the impression that you were saying that if one had never trained under a GM, then the respect issue would not be learned. I mentioned Brian, because he's spent much more time than I under a GM, and during my many lessons with Brian, I've learned a great deal, both about his ideas and values and alot about the Prof. Like I said, I do my best to treat everyone with respect, although you may think that my posts don't reflect that.

On the other hand,of course if some has done or is doing something that you yourself know to be "not on the up and up" then of course you should speak your mind.

Thats why I'm posting on this thread...to speak my mind. But then I get the impression that others don't think I'm being respectful. Maybe its a misunderstanding.

I know how I was raised and would not in anyway speak low of anyone . Step on my foot and I will not tell you that you are stepping on my foot. You have a great teacher in Brian Z. and having known him many years ago continue to respect him.

Bob Q

I'll tell him you were asking for him next time I see him.

 

[bobquinn]

Mike,
something just happened,
Read closing your last post! You my new freind(hopefully)hit it right on. Brian Z. as did many folks train under a GM. Now the baton is being passed. I hope we can start to look at it that way. I appoligize if you mistook what I said. You are now training under a master. That's the way it is!

Bob Quinn

 

[arnisador]

A brain surgeon is not qualified to judge a dentist, yet both are medical doctors.

Eh, not here in the U.S.

1. The name of the group is Soke. You are being awfully literal and not conceptual. There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.

Soke is Japanese, from the time before the Ryukyuan kingdom was assimilated into it. One doesn't really have Okinawan sokes.

Thats like me, a 3rd in Kenpo, sitting on a TKD test board. What the hell do I know about TKD? Nothing! Sure, a kick is a kick, but I don't know the kata, the SD, etc.

I'd go further than this. I know the TKDers have particular ways of thrusting their hip and holding their foot and such during various kicks, and their sine wave, etc., that are different from what's done in other arts. You could see a great side kick but not know whether or not it's a great or even good TKD-style kick. (Certainly I wouldn't know.) I imagine a duplicitous savateur could trick me into believing he was doing TKD if he wanted to do so.

On the other hand, most of us would probably agree on who is very good and who isn't, so if that's all that's being done, that's different. Even then there are exceptions. Parts of Tai Chi and iaido are done very slowly. I could imagine someone misjudging those aspects of the systems.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul Martin. ...... Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.

I missed the above comment earlier.
A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.

1. The name of the group is Soke. You are being awfully literal and not conceptual. There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.

My reply to this, as I am a purist would be that studying Latin doesn't make me a Roman. Why would studying a Japanese art entitle me to a Japanese Cultural title?

Let me quote William M. Bodiford's excellent article on the topic "Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements"

Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."

Personally, I think fromm here on out, I'll just ignore that particullar issue. I mean, in all seriousness, given the choice of arguing on the internet or being on the beach taking photos of girls in bikinis, I know what I'll enjoy more.

 

[Archangel M]

My reply to this, as I am a purist would be that studying Latin doesn't make me a Roman. Why would studying a Japanese art entitle me to a Japanese Cultural title?

Why then should any westerner be able to take a foreign title simply because he takes a foreign art? I wouldnt just stop at soke. This rank and title stuff has almost taken the place of practice and skill.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If it's applicable to that art, and the art is still pretty close to culturally authentic, I'm fine with it. But don't mix n match bits of arts and start calling yourself sifu or soke or sensei. Crazy combo I saw once was an Asian, teaching brazillian and french arts, wanting to be called Guro. He wasn't Filipino. Master/Grandmaster work fine, avoid the mystical-marketing-mumbo/jumbo and are devoid of any cultural misrepresentations.
Who's the higher rank: grandmaster, great grandmaster, soke, soke-dai, supreme grandmaster, grand tuhan, or grand buffet?

 

[Archangel M]

Do any of the people in this "soke council" take the title "soke"? Or do they bestow the title on people? Or is it just what they named their organization?

 

[MJS]

Admin Note:

You will notice that these posts have been split from the MA-80 thread. The posts that are here are ones that were on the subject of Soke Boards. For those that are interested, this discussion can resume here.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin

 

[The Last Legionary]

Do any of the people in this "soke council" take the title "soke"? Or do they bestow the title on people? Or is it just what they named their organization?

Good question.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Good question.

I did see a few FMA Sokes on Youtube. Sucked Donkey big time. Seemed to be the popular opinion of them too.

 

[Dan Anderson]

LL,

Awfully broad statement. A. Could you be specific as to who you saw and B. It's time for you to pony up and actually state your name, experience, and so on in specific detail (your user ID info is so broad that it really says nothing). Otherwise these criticisms are invalid based on unsubstantiated ability or knowledge base to judge or critique fairly. Sorry, bud.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

1.Do any of the people in this "soke council" take the title "soke"?
2.Or do they bestow the title on people?
3.Or is it just what they named their organization?

Hi Archangel,

1. Don't know.
2. No. They don't bestow that title on people (nor the title Grand Master for that matter).
3. It is what they named their organization. I know some people have problems with the name "Soke" but the usage of that name is as valid as aonyone who uses the term "karate" and is not of direct Japanese or Okinawan lineage. The USA has taken many arts and modified them tot he degree that they are not what they were in the homeland. That is a pure and simple fact. The only difference is that karate is a generic term by now and Soke isn't. It is, I believe, the conceptual usage of Soke and not the literal meaning that that council goes by.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[tellner]

Dan,

I've read through the thread and still just don't get it.

Your accomplishments speak for themselves. You've got enough black belts to outfit a mens' clothing store, and you've turned out dozens of instructors who are a credit to your reputation. The last time I met you was a long time ago. You seemed to have a healthy sense of of self esteem, not the weak ego or damaged personality that demands this sort of grotesque ornament.

If you want to say "This is how I've put together all the things I've learned over the years. I'll call it The Anderson System of Martial Arts" nobody would think twice. You've got serious chops and a hard-earned reputation. People with a lot less have claimed a lot more without anyone raising an eyebrow. I don't know about the internal politics of the groups you've studied with, but all the grownups here know how that goes. And they know that skill and knowledge don't go away when people have a falling out.

You know the sort of reputation these "Soke Boards" have. I haven't seen anyone gain anything from them except an unworthy ego boost and a thinner wallet. Their pat on the back isn't going to make you or your students any better. And you can already see the hit you're taking just from the reactions here. It's as if a guy with a Masters, an MBA, and a law degree suddenly said "I just bought a diploma from Huckster College. You can all call me Doctor."

Even a good once over looks pretty ugly. "Soke" has a specific meaning in Japan. When a bunch of people from outside the culture apply it outside of the culture and compliment each other on how good the title looks on them it's worse than ignorant. It's undignified.

 

[The Last Legionary]

LL,

Awfully broad statement. A. Could you be specific as to who you saw and B. It's time for you to pony up and actually state your name, experience, and so on in specific detail (your user ID info is so broad that it really says nothing). Otherwise these criticisms are invalid based on unsubstantiated ability or knowledge base to judge or critique fairly. Sorry, bud.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

A - No, as doing so might violate this sites Fraud Busting policies. You may goto Google and search yourself. There are threads about FMA sokedokes on some FMA sites where they were quite a bit more brutal in their evaluation of the batton twirling and speed wiggling that they saw than even I could be.

B - I currently train in the European arts. I tend to kick people alot. I also spend serious time swinging a Gladius (Mainz style is my preferred blade). Someone who is a Senior Master, a Grandmaster of 2 different systems, as well as a professor should be able to identify the arts easily I think.

C - I don't have to know your systems to identify quality or ********. I've been training and studying long enough to know the good from the bad. That is the same reasoning low esteem types use to justify promotions and awards from people outside their own arts.

- Keil

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

C - I don't have to know your systems to identify quality or ********. I've been training and studying long enough to know the good from the bad. That is the same reasoning low esteem types use to justify promotions and awards from people outside their own arts.

- Keil

Are you saying that Dan and Tim are "low esteem types"? Cuz in general low esteem types don't do what these guys do putting themselves out there in an effort to spread their arts. Low self esteem types usually do things like bash others on an internet forum.

 

[bobquinn]

Add to last post. We seem to know alot about Dan And Tim and less about those that are putting them down.

Bo Q
ROTU

 

[The Last Legionary]

Are you saying that Dan and Tim are "low esteem types"? Cuz in general low esteem types don't do what these guys do putting themselves out there in an effort to spread their arts. Low self esteem types usually do things like bash others on an internet forum.

How many high ranks is it humanly possible for one person in one lifetime to honestly obtain? Again, I will not name names, however, search around and see the "Soke's" who have more dans than a phonebook. The "Supermen" who's list of ranks scroll on and on and on. Then tell me, do they actually have that level of knowledge of all those systems?

Or is it just marketing fluff resume padding to fool the nieve karate-mom?

Is Dan a better martial artist because he went before this resume padding board? Is Tim a more knowledable martial artist because Ernesto and Gyi gave him certificates? Does any of the extra paperwork suddenly push a button and turn them into better people than they were 24 hours prior? I think not!

The only reason for all the padding is to pad your resume and make you look more spectacular to those who don't know any better.

Add to last post. We seem to know alot about Dan And Tim and less about those that are putting them down.

Bo Q
ROTU

I posted my information here repeatedly. I'm sorry if it's not acceptable to some, but I am under no rule requirement here to put up easily traced information so that I or mine could be harassed offline.