MMA would never work in a real fight.
- Thread starter Stealthy
- Start date
That is absolutely wrong. You are taking Chris' point that MA is not for Self Defence to mean TMAs don't work. Chris is coming from a different point of view and he trains in very different arts. Krav is every bit as effective as MMA. Like MMA it combines a lot of techniques from other MAs. Absolutely no difference except Krav like every other TMA doesn't have this obsession of going to the ground which is the product of MMA's purpose which is a sport. MMA has taken a lot of those outdated techniques to use in a sporting environment. We train hard in a non sporting environment using the same techniques and more with the aim of controlling or destroying someone who threatens or attacks us.
An individual TMA such as Goju karate contains everything within Krav with the exception of the BJJ ground component. Even then Goju has many techniques for taking your opponent to the ground, just not to engage in grappling on the ground. You want to fight on the ground, great. Many of us don't want to be tied up rolling around on the ground. The ground is not the place we want to be.
Your comment is disrespectful of all of us who train anything but MMA.
Im not sure why you would be offended by someone saying for a street fight it doesn't matter how hard you train if the art you train isn't realistic for SD or fighting. I didn't mention "all TMA's or even Krav". I wasn't putting down TMA's in
Sent from my iPhonegeneral. The context I was addressing was the technique isn't important if you're training hard in regards to fight.
Thee are many great reasons to train all martial arts I'm sure, but in this context if the techniques of the art don't work well in an actual fight, it doesn't matter how hard you train them.
I have delt delt with plenty of "MMA" fighters and gyms that trained there asses off to fight on my MMA shows and they get there asses handed to them because they are not training what works or training under a guy who doesn't know his stuff, doesn't mean I'm "disrespecting" MMA. Just means hard work isn't going to trump training techniques and arts that actually work.
Its funny, just because I'm an advocate for MMA & BJJ doesn't mean I don't like and respect all arts .
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Gotcha, I agree!
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
So technique is not important?
So technique is important?
Based on some of your previous posts it is understandable that some people will jump to that conclusion.
Technique is always important, if you have horrible technique then the technique you use will be ineffective and won't very well work no matter how hard you train.
:lfao:
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
So, then, the answer to the OP is yes, MMA does work in an actual fight. Whew, I'm sure glad we hammered that one out in only 192 posts!
No, actually. The answer is "it might"... but there are also enough gaps to mean there can't be a straight yes/no answer. It provides a particular fighting skill, geared towards a particular form of fighting, but that's about as clear as you can be, frankly.
Yeah, I get that you don't follow what I'm saying... I'll see if I can describe it better for you. Firstly, the idea of techniques not being important... provided they're relatively solid/mechanically sound (you're not trying to block a sword with your forearm, for example... and yes, that's a real example....), then there really isn't much of importance to them. Whether you apply a full RNC, or a kata hagai jime, or a half choke, or whatever, really doesn't matter. If you hit the temple, or the point of the chin, or the solar plexus, and the other guy goes down, the technique really doesn't matter. It's not important at all. It's just a single possible interaction that can occur. If the technique was the important thing, everyone would be doing the same.
From there we get to the idea of the techniques not being what "works"... well, the first thing you have to look at is what it means for something to "work" in the first place. Of course, the standard response to that is "it's effective"... okay, effective at what? Let's keep it where you think things are, and just look at a violent encounter... you're looking at a choke, or a punch, or an armbar being what is "effective"... but how do you get that armbar on in the first place? How does the punch have an opportunity to land? How do you get to a place where you can choke? And, if you're in a place where you can choke, can you do other things? Could you hit from that position? Or move into some other hold? Obviously, the answer is yes.
So what's important isn't the technique itself... what you do is kinda by-the-by, really. What's important is the tactical application of it... and the ability to put things together in a way that allow the techniques to work. If you don't have the ability to actually enable the techniques, the techniques won't mean a thing. The idea of getting caught up in "this technique, this armbar, this choke" is honestly a very basic, to my mind, beginner mentality. When you first learn a language, you want to know the words... but that doesn't let you speak it. The grammar, the sentence structure does. This is no different.
That of course begs the question of whether a contrived sporting encounter is really "real fight experience". It is, but it's only experience at one type of fight. And not necessarily the most valid for all contexts.
But I gotta ask.... "an athletic, tough street fighter"? What do you actually think they'd be like?
Honestly, I don't think you understand just what these attacks are like... and that's the issue. I've asked before, but I'll ask again (can't remember if I asked you or Kofo, really)... what do you know of social violence and asocial violence? Because, while a fair bit of what I am talking about as needing to be covered for actual self defence training includes things like escape and de-escalation, it's also about understanding and recognising the realities of different forms of violence, rather than sticking to a single form (and, before you misunderstand that, I'm really not meaning "striking vs grappling" or anything of the kind when I talk about different forms of violence).
Because that's not the same. It's like saying there's no teacher in my area for guitar, so why not learn the flute and figure guitar out from that? They're both musical instruments, and both play notes... but that's where it ends. Additionally, you're making one hell of a leap there... frankly, MMA is only the best fighting art for MMA competition. That's it. There is nothing that makes it "the best" in any other context. So the assumption of that being your best place to start is already somewhat off base (there are much better arts for self defence, really...) to begin with.
Er... you think so, do you? Hmm....
Really, all MMA is in terms of it's training methodology, is geared towards MMA's aims of success in MMA competition. Cardio just isn't that important in self defence... sparring can be detrimental, when it all comes down to it... and as for "toughness", all I can say is "HA!"
I think the implication that MMA is it and a bit, when that's simply not the case, is at the heart of it....
Yeah... but you didn't get what was meant, of course...
The problems are that that is not the only context, and that "work well in an actual fight" is hardly a single answer issue. What kind of fight? What do you mean "works"? And, of course, what is the actual aim of the hard training?
Yeah... there's that "what works" thing again... Look, the thing is that this is so vague as to be completely meaningless.
You hide it well.
Ultimately? Nope.
On a basic level (in that the techniques need to be mechanically sound), yeah.
No, not really. Techniques are simply the way that the actual important parts are applied.
Ha, nah, I don't agree with that...
OK. I agree with you, on the basic level technique is important, at the next level it is still recognisable but at the top level you don't see it at all. You reckon we can win that one?
I just thought I was keeping the peace.
:asian:
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm.... honestly, no... the only way technique is important is to make sure you don't use a face-block or similar... or think that waving your hands makes people fall down. It's not, however, a matter of the techniques "disappearing", it's a matter of them having no chance to do anything without the more important aspects being present first... and, once the other aspects are there, whatever technique you do doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's a right cross or a rear naked choke. The technique, when all's said and done, doesn't matter. It's not important.
And hey, I train combative systems that engender a mindset of "kill them all!" (well, in places...)... "peacemaker" doesn't sit well with me... you and your Aikido, though, perfect.... ha!
And hey, I train combative systems that engender a mindset of "kill them all!" (well, in places...)... "peacemaker" doesn't sit well with me... you and your Aikido, though, perfect.... ha!
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
I guess if you bash your head against a wall often enough eventually it will come down and give you a headache.
Agreed.
Agreed again! In the Arnis that I do, there are a number of techniques for taking the other guy down, however, as you said, the difference is, we're not going down with the guy. Many of these takedowns, consist of some sort of control or break after the takedown. Some of the senior guys in the org. have done some BJJ training as well. I recall one camp, in which we did do a bit more non traditional Arnis groundwork. But as I said, for the most part, it's just as you describe with Goju.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
They need to be a bit more than just mechanically sound, they need to be fast, accurate, precise, powerful, effective and reliable. I've had many cars that were mechanically sound that I wouldn't exactly call good, fast or powerful.
You mean apart from the technique being fast, accurate, precise, powerful, effective and reliable?
The right cross or rear naked choke still have to be performed properly to work properly so when it's all said and done, yes it does matter and, yes it is important. You could throw out a right cross with no power and your thumb on the inside of your fist and it will be virtually useless so yeah it matters. TMA practitioners would not spend lots of time on basics, line work, step sparring and patterns etc, if technique wasn't important.
I picked the MMA guy for the reasons that have already been mentioned. Of course, this isn't to say that someone who doesn't train MMA, is worthless or that I wouldn't pick them to have my back. I know many people that do not train MMA, but are more than capable of fighting and defending themselves. It's not always the art, but the way the person trains.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The thing that makes MMA more effective than other "arts" is sparring and aliveness.Someone needs to post something controversial!
.... Mmm, i'll think of something.
I actually found an ACTUAL training video from a local TMA school:
A local, Seattle area MMA'ist actually went into a karate school and recorded the action:
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Not good enough.
The first video, they cut the good bit. The next part was where she slapped his face and dropped him with a nice kick to the nuts.
The second video, total disappointment. It came up with a label saying "this video is unavailable in your country". Damn! It could have been just the catalyst we needed.
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