MMA Rules: More restrictive than people think?

[allenjp]

Oh, and there's this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uNRgeRUgL4&NR=1

I have seen a lot of MMA fights and I have never seen anyone pull this one off, and it doesn't look like they are doing it full force and speed against fully resisting opponents either. Does that mean it "doesn't work"?

Correction:
I have seen one knee bar pulled off successfully in MMA; Ken Shamrock submitted Bas Rutten with one in Pancrase, but it wasn't a "rolling kneebar" where they were standing to begin with, it was executed from the ground.

 

[Skpotamus]

http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats.asp?stats_page=kneebar_wins_overall.asp

A list of all of the sherdog.com listed wins by kneebar, which are quite a few, kneebars and leg locks in general weren't a part of BJJ until fairly recently, and even then not a huge part. Oleg Taktarov has several wins by rolling kneebar, including one against Mark Kerr.


They said it best on the video, they can use the techniques lethal or non lethal depending on the mission requirements. "50 years ago every move a marine learned was designed to kill, but on tours of duty today a marine might have to do anything from crowd control to keeping an enemy alive for questioning, so every MCMAP move must be adaptable to different environments and different needs. MCMAP started in 2001 for the marine corps.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1462151077277855734

is a video of the MACP program that was based on BJJ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Combatives_School a link to the page with info about it, started for the army in 2000.

 

[D Dempsey]

Interesting...but I found this link: http://www.livingvalues.com/theme2008.html

in which is shown a picture of a Bujinkan instructor teaching wrist locks to the Marines.

And also this:

which is a video of marines learing wrist lock take downs.

These are from the MCMAP system, not the old LINE system.

In other threads, wrist locks have been denounced as something that "doesn't work" kind of like PP's here. All I'm saying is that if these techniques such as wrist locks, PP's and the like don't work in real situations and have no hope of working because they are not practiced at full stregnth and speed against fully resisting opponents, why are they being taught to the military (at least the Marines) who have more need than anyone of learning techniques that work in REAL COMBAT situations? Could it perhaps be because someone may have actually used them in real combat before and found out they do work in the right situation?

I admittedly don't know much about the Marine Corps program, as I was in the Army, so that was informative. I think Jack Hoban was an used as advisor in the formation of the Marine Corps program so that picture makes a lot of sense.
Another thing to consider while we discussing it, is that the individual units can train in anything they want as long as the standard combatives curriculum is taught as well. When I was at Ft. Bliss I saw guys brought in to teach unit Krav Maga and other material. My unit brought in two of the local BJJ instructors to do a seminar and was trying to set up a seminar in a style similar to systema, but that didn't work out due to funding. That is how you end up seeing so many teachers claiming that they taught the military something. They're were basically a contract instructor and not the actual go to guy for combatives.

 

[thetruth]

I can't imagine anyone foolish enough to intend to land a glancing blow. Or foolish enough to believe that some would so intend :/

No but at full speed and power (referring to the odd angle shots) one can only assume that stomach 5(or any other point) came into play. There is no way to determine whether pressure points or blunt force trauma were what caused the KO. Even glancing blows are not necessarily PP related as they can cause brain twist and the like if the head is made to twist as such.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Tez3]

In amateur rules MMA there are no head shots so trying to use pressure points on the head and face by punching is redundant.
Personally I hate knee bars and calf crushes as well as ankle locks....they hurt LOL!
I think I shall now boast I've taught the military as most of my students are soldiers! Ended up taking one of them to hospital last night, dislocated right shoulder. No pressure points used just a bad landing on a takedown.

 

[D Dempsey]

No head shots in amateur MMA? I think that depends on the fight location. Where I live there are no head shots on the the ground, but during stand-up it's perfectly fine. They also do standing 8 counts here, which I think is idiotic.

 

[Tez3]

No head shots in amateur MMA? I think that depends on the fight location. Where I live there are no head shots on the the ground, but during stand-up it's perfectly fine. They also do standing 8 counts here, which I think is idiotic.

In the UK amateur MMA is without headshots, there is one promotion that will do headshots but they use different more padded gloves not MMA ones. Headshots standing is semi pro rules here. No one here does a standing count.

 

[D Dempsey]

Generally it's determined by the state. Almost none of them do standing 8 counts. I did forget to mention that ammy MMA here is done with heavier gloves, 6 oz. I believe.

 

[Tez3]

Generally it's determined by the state. Almost none of them do standing 8 counts. I did forget to mention that ammy MMA here is done with heavier gloves, 6 oz. I believe.

We have no ruling bodies nor any official controls whatsoever so fighters are reliant on the promoters good faith. However being a very small sport over here we do tend to know each other and know who to trust and whp not too. A good reputation as a promoter is invaluable. We have had some not very good promotions but it has tended to be more on the money side rathe than rules.

 

[Dave Leverich]

Rules in the states are working towards a 'common ground' for both pro and amateur levels, that's definitely one thing the UFC has helped further by leaps and bounds.

In Oregon, AM fighters can't elbow to the head, I think a couple more, but it's very close to full pro rules.

 

[allenjp]

http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats.asp?stats_page=kneebar_wins_overall.asp

A list of all of the sherdog.com listed wins by kneebar, which are quite a few, kneebars and leg locks in general weren't a part of BJJ until fairly recently, and even then not a huge part. Oleg Taktarov has several wins by rolling kneebar, including one against Mark Kerr.


They said it best on the video, they can use the techniques lethal or non lethal depending on the mission requirements. "50 years ago every move a marine learned was designed to kill, but on tours of duty today a marine might have to do anything from crowd control to keeping an enemy alive for questioning, so every MCMAP move must be adaptable to different environments and different needs. MCMAP started in 2001 for the marine corps.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1462151077277855734

is a video of the MACP program that was based on BJJ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Combatives_School a link to the page with info about it, started for the army in 2000.

Thanks for the info about kneebar submissions in mma, that is informative. However, if you notice, I didn't say anything about what system the MCMAP is based on. It could be primarily BJJ, I don't know. I train BJJ, and I think it is obviously a very useful and potentially lethal art in the right circumstances (one on one, unarmed, on a favorable surface). Nor did I say anything at all about all of the techniques being lethal or not. My point is that they do learn techniques that they can't practice at full force and speed with a fully resisting opponent, and they expect to be able to use those techniques when in potentially deadly situations. Things like PP's, wrist locks, and moves meant to cripple or kill cannot be "sparred" with, and as such many people on these threads contend that they are useless in real situations. All I'm saying is that if the military (which has more experience in lethal confrontations than anybody) is training them and expecting to use them when they really NEED to, they might just work...just logical to me. BTW, on this thread most people have been discussing PP's as something to be struck with a punch. I haven't trained in PP's but I have always thought that many of them are attacked with constant pressure, not only by hitting them. Am I wrong?

 

[crushing]

Rules in the states are working towards a 'common ground' for both pro and amateur levels, that's definitely one thing the UFC has helped further by leaps and bounds.

In Oregon, AM fighters can't elbow to the head, I think a couple more, but it's very close to full pro rules.

I think it's similar in Michigan with the elbow strikes for amateur fights, plus fighters aren't supposed to hit each other with a closed fist!!!! So, what they do is take some tissue, fold it over a few times and put the tissue in their palm before getting wrapped. Technically, with the tissue in there it isn't a closed fist. Sure, it's a joke (or at least seems like it to me).

 

[Tez3]

I think it's similar in Michigan with the elbow strikes for amateur fights, plus fighters aren't supposed to hit each other with a closed fist!!!! So, what they do is take some tissue, fold it over a few times and put the tissue in their palm before getting wrapped. Technically, with the tissue in there it isn't a closed fist. Sure, it's a joke (or at least seems like it to me).

I've never heard of that before, very odd! Mind, for those like me who can do a mean knife and ridge hand strike it would be cool LOL! Not to mention a palm heel strike.
:btg:

Smiley has nothing to do with post, I just like it lol!

 

[allenjp]

Knife and ridge hand strike??

Sounds like you're getting dangerously close to TMA territory there lol!

 

[allenjp]

In amateur rules MMA there are no head shots so trying to use pressure points on the head and face by punching is redundant.
Personally I hate knee bars and calf crushes as well as ankle locks....they hurt LOL!
I think I shall now boast I've taught the military as most of my students are soldiers! Ended up taking one of them to hospital last night, dislocated right shoulder. No pressure points used just a bad landing on a takedown.

You can dislocate a shoulder with a pressure point? I gotta learn that one rofl!

 

[Tez3]

You can dislocate a shoulder with a pressure point? I gotta learn that one rofl!

I suppose you could claim it was hitting a pressure point as he landed that did it lol! No he was being taken down and landed awkwardly, popped his shoulder right out. Went back easily as the doctor was good.

 

[allenjp]

One key necessity for any serious martial art practitioner: A darn good doctor!

 

[DavidCC]

that's true! We have 2 MDs and 3 PA's, pretty much any class is going to have some kind of medical professional in it. We lost 2 med students recently when they had to move away for their residency. It's very handy! "that's not broken" or "you should get that checked out" hahaha

it was very conveneint one day, one of the Doc's broek a guy's nose, and he was right there to treat it :/

 

[allenjp]

that's true! We have 2 MDs and 3 PA's, pretty much any class is going to have some kind of medical professional in it. We lost 2 med students recently when they had to move away for their residency. It's very handy! "that's not broken" or "you should get that checked out" hahaha

it was very conveneint one day, one of the Doc's broek a guy's nose, and he was right there to treat it :/

ROFLMAO! That is hilarious! Yeah we have a chiropractor and an LVN that is studying to be an RN, it's kinda useful...

 

[Tez3]

I took the lad to hospital with one of the other fighters, the doc put him straight on gas and air for the pain while they took X rays then gave him some morphine as he took him into another room to put the shoulder back, the doc who had a wicked sense of humour came back to where we were for the X rays, the lad I was with asked him if Jay the lad with the shoulder would be alright while the shoulder was being put back, the doc said yeah he'd be fine it was just like childbirth -loads of screaming and crying! Afraid I fell about laughing!
Jay was fine though, it went back first attempt much to everyones relief, the pain stopped as soon as it went back leaving just a dull ache. He'll be back training in a little while. The other lad hasn't forgiven me though, Jays his best friend oh and the one that threw him lol!