MCMAP

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well if that mma fighter was training for the cage you would eliminate all weapons/tools training completely which is a focus in MCMAP. You would instead focus on basics that would help them in the cage.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I dont think specific training has anywhere near that sort of effect. If your system is solid then it shouldn't take that much to rengineer it to suit.

Wrestling for example can isolate an arm pretty effectively. An isolated arm gives you a hand cuff or an arm lock or a submission.

Which is my issue with police style defensive stuff is their set up is generally pretty bad.

Jks9199 is right though that police defensive tactics is geared exactly to the needs of law enforcement officers. It also has to work with the equipment that is utilized and the tactics used as well.

 

[hoshin1600]

I will paraphrase Rory Miller, "whenever someone talks about the reality of fighting, the first question should be, whose reality? "
Military, civilian, LOE, bouncer, security MMA fighter, all reside within a different reality. Until that is understood, any conversation on combat will be a waste of breath.

 

[drop bear]

I will paraphrase Rory Miller, "whenever someone talks about the reality of fighting, the first question should be, whose reality? "
Military, civilian, LOE, bouncer, security MMA fighter, all reside within a different reality. Until that is understood, any conversation on combat will be a waste of breath.

The biggest issue with context is that as an argument it is mostly balls.

So I do MMA. I turn up to a boxing school and get my face punched in.

Now this is not a big issue because at the end of the day I am not a boxer and I also apply other things. And my focus isn't really boxing anyway.

Balls.

The better I am at boxing the better I am at MMA it is a skill that being proficient at assists all my other techniques. I am a better kicker if I am a better boxer. I even a better grappler if I am a better boxer.

They all reside within the one reality.

 

[drop bear]

Jks9199 is right though that police defensive tactics is geared exactly to the needs of law enforcement officers. It also has to work with the equipment that is utilized and the tactics used as well.

Just like a womans self defence course is geared exactly towards the needs of women.

Unlike a martial art.

 

[hoshin1600]

The biggest issue with context is that as an argument it is mostly balls.

So I do MMA. I turn up to a boxing school and get my face punched in.

Now this is not a big issue because at the end of the day I am not a boxer and I also apply other things. And my focus isn't really boxing anyway.

Balls.

The better I am at boxing the better I am at MMA it is a skill that being proficient at assists all my other techniques. I am a better kicker if I am a better boxer. I even a better grappler if I am a better boxer.

They all reside within the one reality.

Yes and no. The problem with your analogy is that your comparing sport to a sport. Those are the same reality to start with. Being a better boxer does not make you a better police officer. Having better firearm range skills doesn't make you a better boxer.
Sometimes there can be an overlap in skill set but they need to be applied in a different way. If LEO had high level BJJ it would be an overlap and a useful skill but he had to apply it to his reality. Using ring style BJJ has the potential of having your firearm being taken away.

 

[drop bear]

Yes and no. The problem with your analogy is that your comparing sport to a sport. Those are the same reality to start with. Being a better boxer does not make you a better police officer. Having better firearm range skills doesn't make you a better boxer.
Sometimes there can be an overlap in skill set but they need to be applied in a different way. If LEO had high level BJJ it would be an overlap and a useful skill but he had to apply it to his reality. Using ring style BJJ has the potential of having your firearm being taken away.

Yeah mostly balls. Not completely balls There are things you can get away with in a BJJ comp that you are not really going to want to do when you are arresting people.

But they are specifics not generalisations.

Sometimes using ring style BJJ is more appropriate.

 

[hoshin1600]

Yeah mostly balls. Not completely balls There are things you can get away with in a BJJ comp that you are not really going to want to do when you are arresting people.

But they are specifics not generalisations.

Sometimes using ring style BJJ is more appropriate.

Nice move by the officer. It looks like overkill but we don't know the situation.

 

[FriedRice]

MCMAP is not mma or like mma. It encompasses more as it deals with weapons.

Can you explain why much of it looks like low level MMA then?

 

[FriedRice]

Marine's are not mma fighters nor are most mma fighters marines. Nor is Marine combat training the same as what mma training is. It does not surprise me that a marine trained in MCMAP would not be equal to trained mma fighters in the cage. Likewise mma trained fighters would not be used to marine training in MCMAP they are different with different goals. Saying MCMAP is mma lite is insulting to marines as well as simply not true. MMA fighters do not train with weapons, marines do. As a matter of fact they are rifle marksmen. Their goals are extremely different as well. Marines goals as any marine will tell you is to kill the enemy. That is what their training is for. That isn't the same goal for an mma fighter in the cage. Two very different programs with different goals!

The people who usually say this are usually people who never served in the military and/or never trained to fight MMA. Because the Marines (and other soldiers) who trains at our MMA gyms, they know where they stand....if all they had was training from the military...then they know that they're just White belts and nothing special. Girl Blue Belts submits them most of the time, and certainly will the girl Purples.

You may not like it being labeled as MMA Lite, but that's exactly what it is. If they're "RIFLE MARKSMEN", like you say, then they certainly aren't MMA level fighters. Because it would be crazy to train FULL MMA...risking a ton of injuries.....and having soldiers not being able to perform with back problems, ripped up tendons, concussions, etc.....which are all routine problems with training FULL MMA. And what for, when they've got freakin' M4's with 200+ rounds of ammo on them + grenades + tanks + radio for airstrikes, etc.

This is why MCMAP is MMA Lite...they only gloss over a few things taken from MMA, for fitness and sport. It only takes like 16 months to become a Marine, which includes Boot Camp. That's a ton of things they need to learn and study up for, not just MCMAP chopsocky, if much of it at all. The ones that gets serious with MCMAP are those who likes it or have MA training beforehand, and wants to earn higher ranks for fun/sport. And it's still pretty low level training.

Rarely would any Marines go H2H, if ever, on the battlefield. They'd be dead most of the time. What would cause them to go H2H? Running out of ammo? Even with their sidearm? Many times, they'd surrender rather than run into a hail of 7.62x39mm for a guaranteed death.

 

[FriedRice]

Well if that mma fighter was training for the cage you would eliminate all weapons/tools training completely which is a focus in MCMAP. You would instead focus on basics that would help them in the cage.

MCMAP does not focus heavily on weapons training. You want me to ask a MCMAP instructor whether this is true or not the next time I see him in our BJJ class? The last thing that a soldier wants is to break his freakin' MAIN WEAPON that's mostly polymer, by using it as a blunt force weapon, LOL.

But If you prefer, I can call MCMAP....MMA Lite + Kali Lite. Because it's the same deal.... some dude who's a pencil pusher that trains Kali 3x a week for a few years will destroy a Marine in a padded baton sparring or such. And it just so happens that 1 of the guy who trained at our gym is an instructor for Modern Arnis, or whatever it's called and he's a Veteran too.

Now if you want to tell me that Marines are awesome killing machines with their M4's + high tech weaponry, then absolutely. I myself, train with my AK's and get taught basic tactics by cops and soldiers (when they have time), but yea....I train Combat Lite. Feel better?

 

[drop bear]

Nice move by the officer. It looks like overkill but we don't know the situation.

The situation is that throw works wonderfully in a demo. Bad guy flattens out cooperatively you hold them down with a wrist lock and look super slick handcuffing them.

It covers all the context bases like keeping people away from your belt kit. And you remain standing.

The minor issues of obviously it drops people on their head when it works at all is not really worth worrying about.

You wouldn't see police doing that in any sort of sparring. It would be too unsafe.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No Marines are certainly not mma fighters unless they specifically go and train to become mma fighters. They are instead riflemen and their martial arts program is designed to aid them on the battlefield.

Here are some quotes taken directly from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program manual:

"The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program consists of a belt ranking system that begins at Tan Belt and progresses up to 6th Degree Black Belt. Each belt level consists of specific techniques of the four components of the physical discipline; Rifle & Bayonet, Edged Weapons, Weapons of Opportunity, and Unarmed Combat"

"
Introduction
The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) is designed to improve the warfighting capabilities of individual Marines and units, enhance Marines' self-confidence and esprit de corps, and foster the warrior ethos in the Corps. The focus will be the personal development of each Marine in a team framework, using a standardized, trainable, and sustainable close combat system. MCMAP is distinctively a weapons based system, integrating combat equipment, physical challenges, and tactics typically found in the combat arena. The program:
- Is a true Martial Art (battlefield/military oriented, not sport)
- Enhances the view of the Marine Corps as an Elite Fighting Force
- Provides skills for all Marines
- Is applicable throughout the Spectrum of Violence
- Strengthens ethos and morale
- Enhances recruiting and retention
MCMAP is a progressive system, with each successive level improving on and enhancing skill sets learned in the previous level. Furthermore, the individual Marine will continue to advance through the program throughout his career."

So yeah we can agree that it is not geared towards training Marines for mma. No instead MCMAP is a weapons based system geared towards training Marines for combat on the battlefield. If individual marines wish to be mma fighters then they should go to an mma gym to improve their skills. Not mma lite or kali lite. Instead it is the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program!

PS
I have marines and army military personnel training with us all the time. Several are deployed right now.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here are some MCMAP marine videos you forgot to show:

There are so many more but as you can see none of that looks like mma!

 

[drop bear]

No Marines are certainly not mma fighters unless they specifically go and train to become mma fighters. They are instead riflemen and their martial arts program is designed to aid them on the battlefield.

Here are some quotes taken directly from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program manual:

"The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program consists of a belt ranking system that begins at Tan Belt and progresses up to 6th Degree Black Belt. Each belt level consists of specific techniques of the four components of the physical discipline; Rifle & Bayonet, Edged Weapons, Weapons of Opportunity, and Unarmed Combat"

"
Introduction
The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) is designed to improve the warfighting capabilities of individual Marines and units, enhance Marines' self-confidence and esprit de corps, and foster the warrior ethos in the Corps. The focus will be the personal development of each Marine in a team framework, using a standardized, trainable, and sustainable close combat system. MCMAP is distinctively a weapons based system, integrating combat equipment, physical challenges, and tactics typically found in the combat arena. The program:
- Is a true Martial Art (battlefield/military oriented, not sport)
- Enhances the view of the Marine Corps as an Elite Fighting Force
- Provides skills for all Marines
- Is applicable throughout the Spectrum of Violence
- Strengthens ethos and morale
- Enhances recruiting and retention
MCMAP is a progressive system, with each successive level improving on and enhancing skill sets learned in the previous level. Furthermore, the individual Marine will continue to advance through the program throughout his career."

So yeah we can agree that it is not geared towards training Marines for mma. No instead MCMAP is a weapons based system geared towards training Marines for combat on the battlefield. If individual marines wish to be mma fighters then they should go to an mma gym to improve their skills.

Very similar aims though. Exept for the weapons bit.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The aims are to be proficient on the battlefield. Yet, calling the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program anything other than what it actually is and was designed for is pretty patronizing and insulting to those who created it.

 

[drop bear]

Here are some MCMAP marine videos you forgot to show:

There are so many more but as you can see none of that looks like mma!

It looks like MMA with weapons. Rules padding. Live testing against resisting opponents.

 

[drop bear]

The aims are to be proficient on the battlefield. Yet, calling the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program anything other than what it actually is and was designed for is pretty patronizing and insulting to those who created it.

Marines are kind of sensitive though.

This constant rhetoric of being the best of the best of the best. May get you over the line in a fight. But it is not exactly accurate.

I mean we learned falure is not an option in Mc Map training but they spar. Half of those guys are going to fail.

I have no issue with Mc Map i think it is a good system. But if it was my head on the block i would recognise its limitations and address them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yet, it is not mma. It has different goals, different techniques and a different mindset.

Now, are some of the same techniques found in mma..... sure. Yet, that doesn't make it mma or mma lite or kali lite, etc. It is a very specific martial system designed for the battlefield as you can clearly see from the quoted post in my previous post.

 

[drop bear]

Yet, it is not mma. It has different goals, different techniques and a different mindset.

Now, are some of the same techniques found in mma..... sure. Yet, that doesn't make it mma or mma lite or kali lite, etc. It is a very specific martial system designed for the battlefield as you can clearly see from the quoted post in my previous post.

What are the specific differences?

By the way to prepare soldiers for battle. MMA/Kali light is pretty much exactly on track.