Mcdojo's and their Managers

[Deflecting_the_Storm]

I dont know who came up with that phrase Mcdojo, but I tell you it describes exactly how I feel about the majority of schools out here today. The question I post to the great people of Martialtalk is this: How does the public buy into all of the BS associated with these schools? Is it that hard to research or look around to find more scientific or better run places? A few years ago I attended a seminar by Huk Planis. Great guy, I maybe knew 3 techniques in Kenpo, had my white belt, and really didnt know anything. (In Kenpo that is) There were other Instructors there and the guy who owned the place was there attending too. I think his name was Rob or Bob Hazlewood if I remember correctly. Both he and Mr. Planis looked like they had been sucked out of a self-defense book and brought to life! The movements, the clear explanations, answering all the questions, and even changing stances and movements for people that it didnt work for. It was amazing. To tell you the honest truth, I havent seen anyone like that in a long time. True teachers of their art. Lots of other instructors and even BB carry themselves as proud, arrogant people. Who know exactly what they are talking about. These two men talked to me like I was a person. Teaching me things that I could use in helping me learn Kenpo. No degrading, no downsizing, they taught me like I had been in this for years and that it was just a little problem that needed to be fixed. Whats really sad is, they never knew my name, but they gave me more respect as a student/person than any other instructer or teacher I have met here in Texas. No BS. They asked me what I was studying, they heckled me, they treated me like a guy who came to learn. Not a follower. I called them sir while they helped me but they kept me from saying that over and over again telling me that I was old enough to know respect. I laughed with them and still called them sir. How do others feel about the MCdojos that exist, and how do they stay open?

 

[MJS]

I think that you said it best in this paragraph.

Is it that hard to research or look around to find more scientific or better run places?

While at times it may seem easier said than done, especially if the person doesnt know alot about the art they are looking at, with a little time and effort, it can turn out to be a pretty easy thing to do. The internet as well as word of mouth are two great places to start.

Mike

 

[kenpoworks]

After 25 years in kenpo, I finally met and worked with Huk Planas. he treated me just the same as the white belt at the "McDojo", I learned a great deal in a short weekend, he "fixed" a lot of things in my training.

He is known as the "Kenpo Encyclopedia", but that description of being sucked out of a book and brought to life is on the money.
Richy

 

[lvwhitebir]

How do others feel about the MCdojos that exist, and how do they stay open?

I think you brought up two points, really. The first is the importance for the instructor to actually be a proper teacher rather than some "god-like" figure. This is unrelated, IMO, to a "McDojo" and has more to do with inflated self-worth. You can have a very highly skilled martial artist teaching who has an inflated ego. I've seen this problem with a lot of "teachers" in all sorts of fields. Now that you've seen what a true teacher is, try to emulate it in your teaching and find it for your own training.

As to your last question, the definition of a McDojo is vague. One person's McDojo is another person's gold mine. There's a very traditional school near me that doesn't spar. They do two-person forms and contact drills, but no unrehearsed sparring. In no way would I ever consider them a McDojo, although the lack of contact fighting makes the list of McDojo qualities for many people.

IMO, it's always better to find the right mix of instructor and school for *you* than to bash what someone else feels is right for *them*. Try to go for the positive rather than the negative.

WhiteBirch

 

[loki09789]

IMO, it's always better to find the right mix of instructor and school for *you* than to bash what someone else feels is right for *them*. Try to go for the positive rather than the negative.

WhiteBirch

Though I also get frustrated at the McDojo stuff, I have to agree with this mentallity. It is healthier and means that you aren't wasting clock time being frustrated instead of using that time for quality contact with people who you care about or things that are fulfilling.

How do they stay open? Well, they leave people with the feeling that they have done something unique and rewarding. People go there (hopefully) knowing that they are not being 'combat trained' but trained as martial arts enthusiasts/hobbyists. There may be some self defense applications/training and that should be identified and recognized as useful.

In the long run it is no different than any other hobby/activity. You will have those who dabble, those who 'love it', those who do 'it the right way', and those who are professional at it. Look at running. The proportion of 'professional/career' runners who do marathons/races/competition is a very SMALL community compared to the overall population. THey all can help or hurt the sport/activity by how they represent it to others.

But, I can bet money that there are some 'right way' marathoners who look down their noses at the casual fitness runner who does one 5k a year (and mainly for the after party).

 

[Deflecting_the_Storm]

My definition of a Mcdojo are the schools that teach what seems to be simple techniques, most of them not useful and with no explanation of why, or how. Basics is what should be the focus of every art, with footwork, stances, the hows and whys of doing things explained. Alot of places have what they call the best of some arts mixed together. When in actuallity, its just certain things they feel they would like to put together. Each art has a rhyme and a reason to it. Or I hope it would, and some people do approach it very differently. But how I look at is like if you were to go to a marksmanship/handgun training class. What you are taught is used to injury and or kill people. The people that attend those classes go for one purpose. To learn how to defend themselves with a handgun. Knowing what they are getting into, and how serious it is. I think that if people approach martial arts with this something to do attitude that they need to be turned away. Especially for children. I have taught children and I will tell you that experience proved to me that children need not to be taught how to defend/hurt others because they dont understand the seriousness of it. They cant because they are children. And if people approach MA with this same type of attitude, they will hurt or get hurt themselves. Its scary to see people who think they have been taught self defense and watch them get seriously hurt. False hope. I think that the MCdojos feed on this mentality and suck the money from these people. Giving them false hope, and making a joke of what others take and do seriously.

 

[Spud]

One Person's McDojo is another's goldmine - I like that thought lvwhitebir!

I like that - very true. Depends on what you want from your training. For many kids and parents some of the larger franchised MA schools suite their needs well. The kids have fun and want to go. They may be belt factories and we may look down on the quality of the self defense but if they are enjoying themselves and learning self confidence and respect, then great. If an 8 year old wants to think he's a black belt, fine by me. It doesn't take away from my training and I don't train for the belt recognition.

I left one of the big franchise schools because their program wasn't what I wanted but they had plenty of happy tiny tigers. More power to them and I'm glad they are in the community.

 

[loki09789]

But how I look at is like if you were to go to a marksmanship/handgun training class. What you are taught is used to injury and or kill people. The people that attend those classes go for one purpose. To learn how to defend themselves with a handgun. Knowing what they are getting into, and how serious it is. I think that if people approach martial arts with this something to do attitude that they need to be turned away. .

And they will go to another school that allows them the lattitude to have their own reasons for walking in the door in the beginning as a starting point and the time to discover and appreciate the other possible reasons that martial arts practice can be based on. That is your right to practice and run your business your way.

The problem is that there isn't a recognition for the validity and contribution to a positive impression of the arts on the public that other programs with different approaches can have as well. I would NOT be teaching a childrens class with the same focus/objectives that I would teach an adults class (whether firearms or martial arts - nice analogy btw, have to agree with the veiw on that) because each group needs different things as part of their 'basics' when you are focusing on them for instruction.

I am not a fan of the TKD model for me personally. I don't care for the belt/para military structure, the high kicking focus, the barefoot training, the sparring focus.....

BUT

I can respect and appreciate that TKD has done a lot of good as a popular art to give students structure, discipline, fitness, positive motivation (in a good school - but at can happen anywhere), pride in accomplishment, ..... TKD training is demanding and tough. THe structure reinforces the importants of personal pride and respect for others.

I can 'judge it not right for me' without judging the school/practice/art as a whole.

"McDojo" is a personal opinion term. Even if you define it as training with 'no explanation' that may just be an 'old school' approach where the teacher is master and students do what he says because he said it - at least at first. Later, as they train, they get those "Uh-Huh" moments of discovery because they didn't have it 'told to them.' Just a different approach. Agree or disagree with it is a fine thing to do, judging others by it for 'quality' isn't.

 

[Xequat]

It just depends on what you want out a MA schools, too. I train in a few different arts now, and my main one is largely for health. We work out very hard in class and do lots of different things, like sparring, weapons, and kata, like most schools. But I also attend another school that isn't so hard on the body, but is more practical on the street. It takes pressure points and applies them to techniques that I already know or learn in class and breaks down how and why it's effective. Definitely NOT a McDojo. But I like them both. You just have to figure out your priorities and try out some schools or go by recommendations.

People can recommend a style, but not all schools int hat style will probably be good, so it's kind of up to you. Like when you go to the movies or something. You might like action movies better than comedies, but maybe there's a really funnny one out this weel. You ask your friends how the movie was, you might check out reviews on the Internet, etc., but this is more of an investment, so know what you're getting into before you start.

 

[TChase]

Its scary to see people who think they have been taught self defense and watch them get seriously hurt. False hope. I think that the MCdojos feed on this mentality and suck the money from these people. Giving them false hope, and making a joke of what others take and do seriously.

Exactly! That is the main reason I have a problem with McDojos/Belt Factories. They water down and cut away the material to make it easy. That way they can quickly push people through the ranks while maximizing their profit...all the while telling people how great they're doing. In the end you have a person who has given up a large amount of money and time for nothing more than a false sense of security.

-Tom

 

[Ceicei]

Exactly! That is the main reason I have a problem with McDojos/Belt Factories. They water down and cut away the material to make it easy. That way they can quickly push people through the ranks while maximizing their profit...all the while telling people how great they're doing. In the end you have a person who has given up a large amount of money and time for nothing more than a false sense of security.

-Tom

It is possible to get a false sense of security even with a school that isn't a McDojo... it all boils down to how the instructor teaches and the attitudes of the students.

- Ceicei

 

[SMP]

When you come from a point of ignorance it is difficult to tell what is hamburger and what is lobster

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Its too easy to level the charge of McDojo.

I know one person who directed the charge at my school. He was a failed school owner and the charge was nothing more than "sour grapes" backbiting. I'd been open only six months...he had no idea of what I charged or how I promoted people. He was a commercial failure and closed soon after I opened.

That said, there ARE McDojos. However, these following traits are not necessarily criteria for a school being called one:

The bulk of the income comes from kids.
The school is a part of a franchise.
The school is aggressive in marketing.
The school runs camps, or has a "Black Belt Club" for kids.
Contracts.
The school is located in a mall.

I've seen on other forums where some thought any or all of these would qualify a school as a McDojo. This is fallacious reasoning. A good school could use all of these business tactics and still maintain quality.

Please note my school isn't franchised, doesn't have camps or a "Black Belt Club", nor uses contracts. I have no agenda in defending them.

It is a myth that a good program needs to be run out of a garage by a person who isn't teaching for a living.



Regards,


Steve

 

[TChase]

It is possible to get a false sense of security even with a school that isn't a McDojo... it all boils down to how the instructor teaches and the attitudes of the students.

- Ceicei

How so? If an instructor were to promote you above your ability level or just teach you useless crap in general, then they qualify as a McDojo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

How so? If an instructor were to promote you above your ability level or just teach you useless crap in general, then they qualify as a McDojo.

I think the belief that your school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos is what she is getting at. What is "useless crap" and who is teaching it?
Sean :asian:

 

[TChase]

I think the belief that your school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos is what she is getting at. What is "useless crap" and who is teaching it?
Sean :asian:

I don't see how anything I've said can be construed as "my school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos." I've said nothing of the sort. There are plenty of great schools out there and unfortunately there are plenty of bad ones too. If you're looking for specific examples email or pm me and I'll give you some.

-Tom

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't see how anything I've said can be construed as "my school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos." I've said nothing of the sort. There are plenty of great schools out there and unfortunately there are plenty of bad ones too. If you're looking for specific examples email or pm me and I'll give you some.

-Tom

Tom,
I'm not pointing at you, personaly. I mean the belief that one has a jump on other martial artists because of lineage, trophy count, and even famous names and faces that are in the same style take away from the main goal, which is to better ourselves and sharpen our skills. My point is that every one believes in what they do, and that even low ranking blackbelts can impart a wealth of knowledge. I doubt a question comes up that cannot be answered once they've consulted their sources.

 

[pgsmith]

However, it says bad things about your sense of awareness when you reply to threads that haven't been touched in 13 years.

 

[drop bear]

same reason a fat metaboliser can sell for $65.

Hard work is hard.
HydroxyburnShred - Bodyscience - Fat Burner

 

[Steve]

However, it says bad things about your sense of awareness when you reply to threads that haven't been touched in 13 years.

Is this referencing yourself? I'm truly lost with this one. I see a post from 2004 and then yours with none in between.