Master Angi Uezu vs. Master Kichiro Shimabuku

[scottie]

Master Angi Uezu vs. Master Kichiro Shimabuku
Who was, is, or should have been the man on Okinawa after Tatsuo Shimabuku's death?
I just read that after he returned from College, Kichiro Shimabuku (founder's eldest son) came back and started a new orginzation and started studying Isshinryu. I think because of the family the disagreement was kept silant?
Does any one know more history?
I also know that true to history Kichiro Shimabuku was to take over the art after his father passed away, but I have heard that he was not the best artist or had he spent as much time with Tatsuo Shimabuku (the Founder),as Angi Uezu, however Uezu stayed as long as he could.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't know. I had heard that Master Uezu was Master Shimabuku's original choice, but that there was pressure to pick his own son instead.

However, my own lineage is Master Shimabuku > Masters Mitchum & Harrill > Sensei Holloway > me. I consider myself very fortunate indeed.

 

[dancingalone]

Depends on whether you even think blood should be a qualification for leadership of the system. It is my understanding that there are Americans who are senior to even Mr. Uezu as they attained their BB when he reportedly was still a green and before Mr. Kichiro Shimabuko even started training.

Who had more face time with Tatuso Shimbabuko and presumably was passed as much of his information as possible? No one really knows. I don't hold it out of the question that this might an American, the familial relationships of the two Okinawans notwithstanding.

I understand Angi Uezu is retired from karate entirely and no longer teaches or trains.

 

[scottie]

Thanks that is kinda my thought. you just helped to at least make me think I was right.

However, my own lineage is Master Shimabuku > Masters Mitchum & Harrill > Sensei Holloway > me. I consider myself very fortunate indeed.

You are very fortunate indeed. Master Holloway is doing some amazing things.

I have two Isshinryu lineages one of which is very close to yours.

my 1st lineage is Master Shimabuku> Master Long> Master Little> Me


2nd is Master Shimabuku > Masters Long, Mitchum & Harrill >
Master Doyle Seiber & Branden Newton >Me


If that makes any since at all. Master Seiber is awesome and I quite often hear him talk about Master Harrill and how great he was. From I hear Masters Mitchum & Harrill are only a few of the Americans that did it right. I have been lucky enough to meet Master Mitchum one time. (very humble man). Hope all is well for you sir

 

[scottie]

Depends on whether you even think blood should be a qualification for leadership of the system. It is my understanding that there are Americans who are senior to even Mr. Uezu as they attained their BB when he reportedly was still a green and before Mr. Kichiro Shimabuko even started training.

Who had more face time with Tatuso Shimbabuko and presumably was passed as much of his information as possible? No one really knows. I don't hold it out of the question that this might an American, the familial relationships of the two Okinawans notwithstanding.

I understand Angi Uezu is retired from karate entirely and no longer teaches or trains.

I guess thats right as well. I vote Master Mitchum.

I Know Master Uezu is 75 years old. he had a stroke in April 1994 and started back teaching in 1996.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I guess thats right as well. I vote Master Mitchum.

I Know Master Uezu is 75 years old. he had a stroke in April 1994 and started back teaching in 1996.

I worked with Master Uezu when he was a security guard at Camp Foster in Okinawa and I was a Marine MP in 1982. He was a very nice man. I was sorry to hear he had a stroke. I never trained in Isshin-Ryu with him, but he did teach some non-lethal take-down techniques to us MPs.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If that makes any since at all. Master Seiber is awesome and I quite often hear him talk about Master Harrill and how great he was.

One of my instructors had taken a lot of seminars from Master Harrill and says that he was the best bunkai man in Isshin-Ryu. He (my instructor) teaches us some amazing applications taken from the kata; it's like a never-ending stream.

From I hear Masters Mitchum & Harrill are only a few of the Americans that did it right.

I cannot speak to that, but in my dojo, both Masters Mitchum and Harrill's photos are on our shomen and we give them rei prior to and at the end of every training session.

I have been lucky enough to meet Master Mitchum one time. (very humble man). Hope all is well for you sir

I have not yet met Master Mitchum, but I hope to at one point. All is indeed well with me, thank you for asking. Hope the same is true for you as well.

 

[punisher73]

That's a very politically loaded question. Yes, Kichiro was Tatsuo's son, but Angi was his son-in-law so it wasn't as if it was totally outside of the family.

Many of the original Marine students have discounted both of these men as successors and claim that they have been in Isshinryu longer than them and actually trained them while stationed in Okinawa.

Ciso, Tatsuo's 2nd son was very supportive of AJ Advincula as carrying on his father's tradition. Advincula spends alot of time "debunking" alot of the myths surrounding Isshinryu and who lays claim to what. He was one of the first group of Marines that studied.

Mitchum is also one of the longest studying students and made return trips to Okinawa to learn more and spent time with other okinawan masters (shorin ryu) to expand his learning. He has a couple dvds out with the kata shown on them and it is good to watch and hear him talk about his training and that the kata are exactly as he was taught him.

Here's the important part...Are you getting what YOU want out of your Isshinryu training? If so, it shouldn't matter who is head of it. Tatsuo made many changes and innovations as he taught, if someone was there at the beginning, they may be teaching it exactly as Tatsuo taught them AT THAT TIME, but made changes later. Most of the complaints on Ueza are that the kata etc. is not what they had learned while with Tatsuo.

 

[scottie]

Most of the complaints on Ueza are that the kata etc. is not what they had learned while with Tatsuo.

That is a major complaint about most of the first Americans minus Mitchum. I may buy those DVDs. Thank you sir for your input.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I know that Isshin-Ryu is fragmented, and as a yon-kyu karateka, I can only say that it seems a shame to me.

Associations:

International Isshin-Ryu Karate Association (IIKA)
Isshin-Ryu World Karate Association (IWKA) - formerly AOKA
American Okinawan Isshin Ryu Karate-do Association (AOIK)
United States Isshin-Ryu Karate Association (USIKA)
Order of Isshin-Ryu (OI)
American Okinawan Karate Association (AOKA)
Okinawa Isshin-Ryu Karate and Kobudo Association (OIKKA)
United Isshinryu Karate Association (UIKA)
United Isshin-Ryu Karate Federation (UIKF)
Tatsuo Kan Society (TKS)
United Isshin-Ryu Council (UIC)

There is also a Hall of Fame:

http://ihof.us (Isshin-Ryu Hall of Fame), which is apparently recognized by many (most?) of the various Isshin-Ryu associations.

I have trained at two different Isshin-Ryu dojos, and the katas are slightly different, taught in a different order, and the belt systems are not quite the same. But such is life.

 

[scottie]

Here's the important part...Are you getting what YOU want out of your Isshinryu training? “punisher 73”

I guess to risk sounding like a hypocrite my friend punisher 73 was right. I started in American Karate, went to 5th Dan, left for Isshinryu fell in love with the art of Isshinryu . Left to help my old teacher In American Karate and now I train both, although Isshinryu has become my heart. I have two separate shodan dates in Isshinryu because one group would not accept the other group’s shodan, what-ever. I still think Isshinryu is the brain child of one of the best Martial Artist ever to walk on Okinawa.

I just wish I could learn the true history and not what best fits each group.

 

[Victor Smith]

Who should have been in charge of Isshinryu after Shimabuku Tatsuo’s death?
Before I comment there I’d like to begin by looking at Okinawa in particular.

Until the 1950’s there really weren’t structured Okinawan karate systems, instead there were individual instructors. In the 50’s, likely because the USA was returning control of Okinawa back to Japan in 1972 the Okinawan’s finally began to follow practices that would look like the Karate developments in Japan itself. Formal uniforms, organizations, dan ranking, etc.

When Kyan (one and probably the main instructor of Shimabuku Tatsuo) passed away those who trained with him and had become instructors didn’t fight to see who was to be in charge of Kyan’s system, Kyan had no system, he just taught his karate. Instead they did what they did, each looking different from each other to some extent, and Shimabuku Sensei’s changes in the same yet separate.

In 85 I had the occasion to meet and chat with Shimabukuro Zempo (today head of the Seibukan one of the Kyan style schools) and at that time he explained to me on Okinawa there were 90 Shorin schools, 60 Goju schools and only 3 Isshinryu schools. Just a comment but years later George Donahue (in a Shorinryu lineage and having trained on Okinawa) explained if you visited each of those 90 Shorin dojo they’re all doing something different too.

Creating Isshinryu Shimabuku didn’t just create a new way of training doing karate, he created a very fast course of study to share a piece of his system, and did so sharing it with the USMC for starters. There was no structure envisioned to control the spread of Isshinryu, it is likely he didn’t believe those students had learned enough to continue his Isshinryu studies for the rest of their lives (a very non-Okinawan idea).

Of course they did, karate is not rocket science after all. No doubt their arts were not his and became their own in myriad’s of different ways.

Now in the 50’s and 60’s on Okinawa what did the head of a system mean, simply the head of a school or schools on an island 45 miles long. Throughout martial arts history succession of a style or school head has been fraught with difficulty.

The dynamics behind Shimabuku’s son Kichero taking the Isshinryu mantle, the departure of most of the rest of his Okinawan students (which actually began when he started teaching both Isshirnyu as opposed to Kyan’s karate, and the Americans (the destruction of ½ of Okinawa’s population from WWII was too difficult to deal with), and even the fact that as this form of Karate spread around the world it was being done without Okinawan control, makes the issue of style head most curious.

If you look at the Uzeu Angi youtube video’s from 1968 I believe you are seeing as close to the Shimabuku Tatsuo ideal as exists (at that time he was still training under his father in law). But the video I’ve seen of Shimabuku Kichero doesn’t look horrible either.

Tthe immense issue of distances involved kept true communication between the entire Isshinryu community stifled, and lack of 20 or 30 years continuous training with the founder, the differences between Isshinryu karate-ka continued to widen, no matter which Okinawan group some found worthy, and many simply stepped away from the issue.

Was there anything to rationally be in charge of? Or is it a spiritual issue, a desire to have a leader by the leaderless?

There are many valid interpretations to Isshinryu, especially if they can knock down someone attacking. That should be enough of a common cure to build upon. Most of the other issues cannot be rationally resolved, and are used to build walls.

My instructors trained with Shimabuku Tatsuo (Mr. Lewis) and also with Shinso (Mr. Lewis’ student Charles Murray in 72 with both Shimabuku Tatsuo & Shinso. I simply use my instructors as my guide to what my Isshinryu could be. That is logical.

The funny thing is to evaluate any instructor you only have to evaluate their students abilities and accomplishments.

For example I trained a slight bit with the late Sherman Harrill (and found out he originally trained alongside Tom Lewis on Okinawa among others). Harrill Sensei did develop a very unique ability to extract hundreds of application potentials from Isshinryu kata technique. But as an instructor you evaluate him by his students. I only have to suggest John Kerker (who now heads Harrill Sensei’s old Carson City dojo in Iowa) is cut from the same cloth. Harrill Sensei’s students do what he did, the mark of transmission, which does not come from 15 months but decades of work.

What happened is just now Isshinryu lore. That you have any of it is simply that everyone ignored the true Okinawan tradition and didn’t keep it private. I know the truth of Shimabuku Tatsuo but I don’t know him except from my instructor’s words. For the rest the true history always resides with who’s telling g the tale.

I’ve never associated with Shimabuku Tatsuo, Kichero or Shinso, nor have I associated with Uezu Angi. Trying to understand the ‘truth’ is a very small concern, IMO.

But if there is an answer it should be whoever trained longest, knew the most and was the best.

I would just suggest it probably would not have made any difference if the outcome was different.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I was in Okinawa at the end of march and I trained in Isshin Ryu dojo's and not being a isshin ryu karate-ka here is my take from both my research and exposure to isshin ryu. First I got the opportunity to train in Kichiro Shimabuku's dojo and I will tell you what is being taught now does not look like the old school Isshin ryu I can't even say that it looks like OKinawan karate much because his focus right now is preparing his students for competition (yes it happens on Okinawa to). But I can't say that Shimabuku's Karate was bad. At 70 years old he moves better and with more power than many that are in their 30's not to mention he knows how to make you train hard.

The second person I trained with was Tsuyoshi Uechi a 9th Dan and the recognized head of isshin ryu in the Okinawa Prefecture Karatedo Rengokai. Uechi Sensei again very powerful and fluid in his movements but his karate was more of what I believe the oiriginal style of isshin ryu was.

There is still that backbiting and politics about who the actual head of Isshin ryu is and thats why Isshin Ryu has splintered so much and they have lost very good karate-ka to other styles in particular to Goju Ryu.

I heard a lot of the history of this and I won't get into it here. All I know is if you want to know for yourself go to Okinawa and get on their floor. You will learn alot about your karate whether you are Isshin ryu or not. Not to mention it was pretty amazing the stand on the ground where the old Agena Dojo once stood and to visit Tatsuo Shimabuku's tomb (minus the god awful smell from the hog farm).

Just my .02 worth.

 

[bigmoe]

The way that i was told by several 1st generation students that the best person to take over isshinryu was Master Shimabuku 2nd son who from what i was told was there everyday practcing.That Kichiro did not even practice but was givin to Kichiro because he was the 1st son

 

[Brandon Fisher]

The way that i was told by several 1st generation students that the best person to take over isshinryu was Master Shimabuku 2nd son who from what i was told was there everyday practcing.That Kichiro did not even practice but was givin to Kichiro because he was the 1st son

Thats one of the stories I heard in Okinawa.