Martial Sport VS Self Defense

[drop bear]

Going to another school means probably a different instructor, with different skillsets, teaching slightly different interpretations of the same techniques

This is the point of an open mat. Have you attended one?

 

[drop bear]

In comp, you want to win. A little like 'street', but it's still not the same.

A comp can be very much wanting to not loose. Which is very much like a self defence situation.

 

[pdg]

So you could do it. You just don't want to?

Look mate seriously have a think about how you are mentally processing that. Because I think you are being dishonest with yourself.

Because there is a difference between don't want to and unable to.

And self defence centers around that difference.

Out of interest, where do I fit in your interpretation, based on the following:

I am yet to officially compete.

I want to, but the events I've been allowed to enter so far have either clashed with other commitments or I've not had the spare cash to cover the entry...

I've 'beaten' others in class sparring "mini competition" that have been placed in "real" competition.

So I've been unable to compete, but not due to competency (in my and my instructor's opinion)...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you could do it. You just don't want to?

Could have (not can) with grappling. Doubt I could anymore. I actually thought about whether I could compete if I started BJJ (which is something I'm hoping to have time and money to do sometime in the next couple of years). I just don't see my legs allowing it. When I roll, I have to make rather dramatic concessions to my arthritic toes, so competition probably isn't something I'll get to do. Wish I'd done it when I was able - would have been nice to know how I'd have fared.

I still could with striking. I don't see where my legs would hold me back from competing (just slow me down, so I'd have to be better defending). I just don't have any interest in taking the head shots needed to compete, nor in handing them out. I suppose I could find something that doesn't allow head shots or only allows very light contact, but I'm not seeing much advantage over good sparring. The real advantage in striking sparring comes with hard sparring (competition or otherwise), and that's something I prefer to limit for the reasons I just gave. I'm pretty honest with myself that I don't want to give or take head shots, and that this limits my training experience (because competition is still just training, to me).

Look mate seriously have a think about how you are mentally processing that. Because I think you are being dishonest with yourself.

Nothing dishonest about it. Back then, I never really had an interest in competition of any sort, even when I was training for it in Judo. That's probably why I stayed long-term with an art that doesn't train for competition.

Because there is a difference between don't want to and unable to.

Yep.

And self defence centers around that difference.

Hmm...need to think that through, using what you think I was saying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A comp can be very much wanting to not loose. Which is very much like a self defence situation.

I tend to have that same reaction without going to a competition. I used to say I wasn't competitive, but looking back at my own approach to sparring (especially after some of our discussions last year), I realize I've always been competitive when working with resistance.

 

[drop bear]

Out of interest, where do I fit in your interpretation, based on the following:

I am yet to officially compete.

I want to, but the events I've been allowed to enter so far have either clashed with other commitments or I've not had the spare cash to cover the entry...

I've 'beaten' others in class sparring "mini competition" that have been placed in "real" competition.

So I've been unable to compete, but not due to competency (in my and my instructor's opinion)...

You would have to compete to know one way or the other.

I have out sparred guys who would roll me in competition. Just through mental toughness and drive to Finnish.

 

[drop bear]

I tend to have that same reaction without going to a competition. I used to say I wasn't competitive, but looking back at my own approach to sparring (especially after some of our discussions last year), I realize I've always been competitive when working with resistance.

Fighting to win and fighting not to loose are two different animals.

Loosing publicly sucks. It is a hard thing to face. Look at ronda rousey. It mentally crippled her for ages.

Self defence is such a mental game that these tools are vital to develop.

 

[pdg]

This is the point of an open mat. Have you attended one?

No. I don't know of any that are held within any sort of reasonable distance of me...

You would have to compete to know one way or the other.

I have out sparred guys who would roll me in competition. Just through mental toughness and drive to Finnish.

Fair enough.

I'm aiming to compete this year so I'll be sure to report back

 

[drop bear]

No. I don't know of any that are held within any sort of reasonable distance of me...



Fair enough.

I'm aiming to compete this year so I'll be sure to report back

Yeah tell us how you go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fighting to win and fighting not to loose are two different animals.

Loosing publicly sucks. It is a hard thing to face. Look at ronda rousey. It mentally crippled her for ages.

Self defence is such a mental game that these tools are vital to develop.

I can only talk about my experience in other competition, since I've never competed in MA. The public nature of a win or loss has never had much effect on me - it's the win/loss itself that seems to affect me, and how much importance I put on the event. It might be different with MA, but I'm not sure why it would be.

You are correct that there's a difference between trying to win and trying not to lose. I tend to confuse them in my comments, because there's an overlap. When sparring (and sports), I don't like losing against someone I think is better than me - I go into "don't lose" mode. With someone who feels like a good challenge but not better, I tend to focus on winning. I'm not sure there's a clear line between those two, though they are different things. When I coached soccer, I coached not to lose, and never did. We won a lot, but I always refer to those as "undefeated" seasons, because that's how I see them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the point of an open mat. Have you attended one?

I'd love to offer open-mat. I've only had a chance to participate in them a couple of times (they are hard to find outside an MMA gym, IME, and not always available even there). It would be good for both me and my students. I'd have to look into the insurance and liability for that. It's one of the items on my "ideal dojo" list.

 

[pdg]

I'd love to offer open-mat. I've only had a chance to participate in them a couple of times (they are hard to find outside an MMA gym, IME, and not always available even there). It would be good for both me and my students. I'd have to look into the insurance and liability for that. It's one of the items on my "ideal dojo" list.

Actually, I wasn't entirely truthful before.

I do know of one place that holds open sessions, all welcome deal.

But, it's boxing. Normal modern western boxing.

I'd probably be able to get something out of it as I'm fully aware my hand striking is very much my weak point - but it doesn't hold much attraction for me over that.

Maybe someday I'll give it a go.

 

[Steve]

This is the part where we really disagree, Steve. A simulator simulates. A person trying to throw me while I try to throw them is not simulating. Their intention can be exactly the same as the person in a competition. In fact, it can be the same person as in the competition.

I'd be willing to accept the argument that resistive sparring in one's own dojo is like flying with a skilled person (whether trainer, co-pilot, or simply a skilled pilot as passenger) in the seat next to you. It's still flying, but with a measure of control not present in solo flying.

It’s a simulated fight. Their intention will never be the same as someone in a competition, nor someone who is trying to hurt you. Sparring isn’t about beating or defeating your fellow student, Shoot, man, they’re even called sparring partners, not sparring villains or sparring opponents.

I get that you won’t accept it, but you’re acting like we are negotiating now. Training is training. Good training will facilitate the transition to application, but it will never replace it.

 

[drop bear]

I'd love to offer open-mat. I've only had a chance to participate in them a couple of times (they are hard to find outside an MMA gym, IME, and not always available even there). It would be good for both me and my students. I'd have to look into the insurance and liability for that. It's one of the items on my "ideal dojo" list.

MMA should be the most suitable though as it offers the most rulesets.

 

[pdg]

It’s a simulated fight. Their intention will never be the same as someone in a competition, nor someone who is trying to hurt you. Sparring isn’t about beating or defeating your fellow student, Shoot, man, they’re even called sparring partners, not sparring villains or sparring opponents

Competition could be viewed as simulated fighting too though - depending on ruleset.

Unless the competitions you attend are vastly different from the ones I've seen, your opponent isn't planning to kill you in the face with a chainsaw and steal your car...

I'm making a big assumption here as I have no frame of reference for either, but I imagine actual real self defence in a situation that's reached the physical altercation level is a different stress profile to trying to win a shiny trophy.

 

[Steve]

I've asked this before, and didn't understand the answer, so what's the clear distinction to you among these four?

1. Resistive sparring/rolling/randori in class with a known opponent (a student you've trained with before).
2. Resistive sparring/rolling/randori in class with an unknown opponent (another student you've never met).
3. Resistive sparring/rolling/randori in someone else's class with a known or unknown opponent (visiting another school, for instance).
4. Resistive sparring/rolling/randori in a competition with a known or unknown opponent (maybe someone you've competed against before, maybe not).

The way you've voiced it in these threads, only #4 constitutes "application", regardless of whether the opponent is a known quantity or not. It seems arbitrary, at best.

The fourth isn’t sparring, rolling or randori. It’s the application of the skills and techniques practiced while sparring. In the same way, arresting a bad guy is the application of skills learned in the police academy. Or Managing employee performance is the application of the skills learned in a new supervisor training.

The training isn’t the application. So, if you’re never applying the training outside of training, you have created an abnormal situation where the training itself is your application. And the results are that the skills are underdeveloped and unreliable.

 

[Steve]

Competition could be viewed as simulated fighting too though - depending on ruleset.

Unless the competitions you attend are vastly different from the ones I've seen, your opponent isn't planning to kill you in the face with a chainsaw and steal your car...

I'm making a big assumption here as I have no frame of reference for either, but I imagine actual real self defence in a situation that's reached the physical altercation level is a different stress profile to trying to win a shiny trophy.

Competition isn’t street fighting. Sure. That is an important point. I’m not suggesting that they are the same. I’m suggesting that it is developing reliable skills. What skills are being developed will depend on the nature of the competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually, I wasn't entirely truthful before.

I do know of one place that holds open sessions, all welcome deal.

But, it's boxing. Normal modern western boxing.

I'd probably be able to get something out of it as I'm fully aware my hand striking is very much my weak point - but it doesn't hold much attraction for me over that.

Maybe someday I'll give it a go.

I do think the boxing/wrestling/BJJ gym (clearly MMA gym) I've looked at has open mat time. I keep meaning to drop by and see what goes on then, to see if it looks inviting to folks outside those styles or if it's just boxing (which I somehow took it to be from the website). Stupid stuff like life and work keep interfering with that plan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It’s a simulated fight. Their intention will never be the same as someone in a competition, nor someone who is trying to hurt you. Sparring isn’t about beating or defeating your fellow student, Shoot, man, they’re even called sparring partners, not sparring villains or sparring opponents.

I get that you won’t accept it, but you’re acting like we are negotiating now. Training is training. Good training will facilitate the transition to application, but it will never replace it.

Okay, so competition is also a simulated fight. See, I don't really have a problem with calling sparring a simulation of a fight, but I fail to see the stark line you appear to see between training and competition (which I see as a training tool).

 

[Steve]

So, what is the difference between the known person in class (part of 2) and out of class (part of 3). And what is the difference between the unknown person in an outside location (part of 3) and the same in an official competition (4)?

This is the disconnect for me. Competition isn't magic. If there's a key difference other than the one I've pointed out, the folks making the argument haven't made reference to it that I've seen.

The key difference is that one is like college and the other is like a job. One is like boot camp and the other is like what happens after you get to your first duty station. One is like learning to do something, and the other is like doing that thing. One is like reading cook books, and the other is like cooking a recipe.

It’s a logical, reasonable, and very predictable delineation.