Martial Sport VS Self Defense

[drop bear]

Okay, I can see that. Would you say that's likely true (that they train the system, rather than training for MMA competition) at most/all MMA gyms? The descriptions I've heard in the past led me to believe that at least some gyms (I had thought it was common, but that may have been my misunderstanding) had "groundwork days" where they'd practice a subset of either BJJ or wrestling, or perhaps a blend of the two. Then they'd have "standup days" where they worked whatever standup style they were using. I'm having trouble imagining them practicing the floor starting position used in collegiate wrestling, for instance, even if the techniques are the basis of their ground game.

If MMA fighters do typically practice those approaches that don't apply to MMA when they are training at an MMA gym specifically for MMA, I'm curious as to why.

My view as to why is because it isolates areas that would otherwise be avoided.

So if you did BJJ and but flopped your way to victory. You may never need to learn how to properly throw someone. So then you make yourself do Judo or wrestling where you can only really throw people.

And you will get better at BJJ.

So this basically

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My view as to why is because it isolates areas that would otherwise be avoided.

So if you did BJJ and but flopped your way to victory. You may never need to learn how to properly throw someone. So then you make yourself do Judo or wrestling where you can only really throw people.

And you will get better at BJJ.

So this basically

I suppose that makes sense. So, you'd say it's pretty common that MMA gyms (again, those specifically training folks for MMA) cover the entirety of whatever styles they're using, including the parts that aren't applicable to MMA? That confuses me, but I'd assume you know that better than I.

 

[Steve]

A recent boxing bout between a top-level boxer and a top-level MMA fighter didn't seem to reflect this.

You're a professional trainer. You truly don't see how crazy your logic is here? I really don't believe that.

If an MMA fighter is also a boxer (meaning they actually compete in both), then that's not the example I'm using.

LOL. What? You're literally making my point for me. Go back and reread my earlier posts about application. You're making that argument now.

If they also compete in BJJ competition, that's also a different thing. I doubt (but can't assert) that every MMA fighter competes in non-MMA competitions.

Most do. I can't say all, because I don't know all, but most compete in grappling events and also MMA events. Many compete or have competed in kickboxing or muay thai boxing events, as well. My experience is that people who like to compete seek it out in any way they can. At a certain point, when they decide to make a run at fighting professionally, they tend to limit their activities to things that will sharpen skills. So, they may compete in non-MMA events, but more to tune up skills than to excel in those areas.

As for training the entire system, do they (MMA fighters who don't compete in BJJ competition) train the strategies that are used in BJJ competition, like pulling guard early? That seems a bad strategy when the other guy is allowed to hit you while you're down, so I have difficulty understanding why they'd practice that. Or do they train (usually) an adapted version of BJJ, specific to their context. Now, this might be a difference in semantics, since BJJ doesn't really have a specific curriculum like many TMA, so it may be that I'm just drawing a distinction that doesn't really make sense from a BJJ perspective. Since you know the group better than I, I'll go with that.

You're actively looking for exceptions to the rule, and then trying to draw blanket conclusions from the exceptions. But to answer your question, it depends. I know several pro-MMA fighters who are very comfortable pulling guard. You are just speaking out of your backside here. Said the other way, being comfortable pulling guard doesn't mean you're a slave to the strategy and can't adapt to a different context. Quite the opposite, actually. If you apply skills, the adaptation actually becomes easier.

As for boxing, a similar dynamic likely exists.

Likely? So, then... you really don't know. Do you? You're speculating... that's actually important to note.

There are tactics that are not terribly useful when the other guy is allowed to throw you down (and is trained to do so), can elbow you in the head, or can tie you into a clinch for a few knees, but which would be a normal part of boxing competition. If you're not competing in boxing competition, and are training boxing at an MMA gym, for MMA fighting, why would you train those?

Come on, man.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're a professional trainer. You truly don't see how crazy your logic is here? I really don't believe that. LOL. What? You're literally making my point for me. Go back and reread my earlier posts about application. You're making that argument now. Most do. I can't say all, because I don't know all, but most compete in grappling events and also MMA events. Many compete or have competed in kickboxing or muay thai boxing events, as well. My experience is that people who like to compete seek it out in any way they can. At a certain point, when they decide to make a run at fighting professionally, they tend to limit their activities to things that will sharpen skills. So, they may compete in non-MMA events, but more to tune up skills than to excel in those areas. You're actively looking for exceptions to the rule, and then trying to draw blanket conclusions from the exceptions. But to answer your question, it depends. I know several pro-MMA fighters who are very comfortable pulling guard. You are just speaking out of your backside here. Said the other way, being comfortable pulling guard doesn't mean you're a slave to the strategy and can't adapt to a different context. Quite the opposite, actually. If you apply skills, the adaptation actually becomes easier. Likely? So, then... you really don't know. Do you? You're speculating... that's actually important to note. Come on, man.

Do you not see the tone of your own post? See, I'm having a similar conversation with Drop Bear. He simply educated me. What he tells me doesn't line up with what I thought I'd been told, but I assume he has more exposure in the MMA world than I do (even conversationally), so I accept that my confusion is my own.

You have some points to make here, and they'd be much easier to find if you took the approach you used to (haven't seen it in discussions lately).

 

[CB Jones]

The pro fighter we know didnt train the whole style of BJJ. He had a grappling coach and they worked take down defense, escapes, and how to defend techniques applicable to mma but didn’t train the whole system.

 

[drop bear]

The pro fighter we know didnt train the whole style of BJJ. He had a grappling coach and they worked take down defense, escapes, and how to defend techniques applicable to mma but didn’t train the whole system.

Who was he?

 

[Steve]

Do you not see the tone of your own post? See, I'm having a similar conversation with Drop Bear. He simply educated me. What he tells me doesn't line up with what I thought I'd been told, but I assume he has more exposure in the MMA world than I do (even conversationally), so I accept that my confusion is my own.

You have some points to make here, and they'd be much easier to find if you took the approach you used to (haven't seen it in discussions lately).

Drop Bear is a saint, He is way more patient than I. But I do appreciate your acknowledgment of the points I’ve made.

 

[Steve]

The pro fighter we know didnt train the whole style of BJJ. He had a grappling coach and they worked take down defense, escapes, and how to defend techniques applicable to mma but didn’t train the whole system.

Some don’t train BJJ at all. Most do, though.

 

[Anarax]

I wanted to address the comments on bowing. Bowing in the dojo is what you make of it. Or what any particular school makes of it.

Bowing in any dojo I ran was a big deal. It was like jacking a round in the chamber. And it was also like patting a puppy in affection.

Both different, obviously, but a big F'n deal none the less. And on the other side of the coin, I am perfectly comfortable in any dojo that has no bowing whatsoever.

I agree. I was objecting to the idea that bowing detracts or diminishes the SD component of MA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree. I was objecting to the idea that bowing detracts or diminishes the SD component of MA.

I don't think he ever said that. He said it wasn't necessary to it. I think we can all agree that's a reasonable statement.

 

[drop bear]

Drop Bear is a saint, He is way more patient than I. But I do appreciate your acknowledgment of the points I’ve made.

Scary concept that.

In a world where I might be the reasonable one.

 

[CB Jones]

Some don’t train BJJ at all. Most do, though.

Ok....maybe I just misunderstood...I was just pointing out that some maybe don’t train complete styles just applicable techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok....maybe I just misunderstood...I was just pointing out that some maybe don’t train complete styles just applicable techniques.

That had been my understanding from some MMA folks I talked with in the past.