Martial sacrilege (part 3)

[Finlay]

Right then part 3

Creating your own style

I am sure you have someone in your area who has created their own style of martial arts

Maybe it is a old Japanese term

Maybe it is a mix of two different styles and languages (tak kwon jitsu)

But how many art actually legit ?

For example I have a self proclaimed 8th Dan in my town who ha' somehow managed to make his style both ineffective and illegal. Possibly a clever marketing ploy as one cancels the other out.

However

Have you met someone who developed their own style

When is it right to develop your own style

Do you trust people with such claims.... especially of they also award themselves high ranking Dan grades?

I believe the forum rules forbid naming names so let' keep the conversation general

Otherwise said 8th Dan will be named and shamed

 

[oftheherd1]

Perhaps a little more clarification would help. After all, Ueshiba made his own style which is called Aikido. Choi made his own style, which was later refined and called Hapkido. My GM made his own style within Hapkido, as have others, but under the umbrella of Hapkido.

Without naming names, why do you say the person you are talking about doesn't know what he is doing; teaching a bogus and ineffectual art? Have you studied under him? Have you watched him teaching? Knowing more exactly what is being done wrong would give a better frame of reference to comment.

 

[DaveB]

Anyone who's trained to the point of an in depth understanding their art should have their own style. It is just a way of doing things.

The real question is what do you mean by legit?

 

[JR 137]

Anyone who's trained to the point of an in depth understanding their art should have their own style. It is just a way of doing things.

The real question is what do you mean by legit?

Their own school within a style, as in still karate, but independent/different syllabus, or their own style completely? Their own independent school is one thing, a completely new style is another. But if they’ve got enough quality experience in a few different arts and can effectively blend them, I see no issue. Several of the old school Kyokushin teachers and competitors (truly elite level guys) that also had legitimate dan ranking in Judo or other grappling arts made their own system - kudo, shidokan, Enshin, etc. - that combined Kyokushin standup fighting with grappling, essentially forming an MMA style.

 

[Finlay]

Perhaps a little more clarification would help. After all, Ueshiba made his own style which is called Aikido. Choi made his own style, which was later refined and called Hapkido. My GM made his own style within Hapkido, as have others, but under the umbrella of Hapkido.

Without naming names, why do you say the person you are talking about doesn't know what he is doing; teaching a bogus and ineffectual art? Have you studied under him? Have you watched him teaching? Knowing more exactly what is being done wrong would give a better frame of reference to comment.

Good questions

As for the gentleman i spoke if,

I have met him and I have attended his classes. Quite stylised but sold as self defence.

His website goes describes as 'doing maximum damage to an attacker with the least effort' OK so a ot if arts claim this I guess or something along those lines.

However, in the video of his self defence he shows flipping a guy over, crashin into the mat/floor/pavement then kicking the downed man in the ribs before doing a very odd knife hand strike to the back of the neck.

This I believe in many countries would be deemed illegal

Legit, I have been thinking best how to describe it. An art with suitable skill development created by a highly skilled martial artist. Someone who spent years learning and refining his art and who really understands the principles at work behind the techniques

 

[oftheherd1]

Good questions

As for the gentleman i spoke if,

I have met him and I have attended his classes. Quite stylised but sold as self defence.

His website goes describes as 'doing maximum damage to an attacker with the least effort' OK so a ot if arts claim this I guess or something along those lines.

However, in the video of his self defence he shows flipping a guy over, crashin into the mat/floor/pavement then kicking the downed man in the ribs before doing a very odd knife hand strike to the back of the neck.

This I believe in many countries would be deemed illegal

Legit, I have been thinking best how to describe it. An art with suitable skill development created by a highly skilled martial artist. Someone who spent years learning and refining his art and who really understands the principles at work behind the techniques

Well, it is hard to comment without seeing it, but if the hand strike is a spear strike, that does sound unusual. If it is a knife edge strike, top or bottom of the open hand, that would be more normal.

As to illegal, imho, there is no such thing in defense against an attacker unless during dojang sparring. You said he describes 'doing maximum damage to an attacker with the least effort.' That would describe how I was taught in the Hapkido I learned. We would prefer not to fight, but if we are forced into defending ourselves, whatever happens to an attacker is the attacker's responsibility. The rib kick may be another injury to keep the attacker otherwise occupied while we move to attack the neck. Sort of a distraction. I think Jiu Jitsu does that (a Jiu Jitsu student will correct me if I am wrong).

Maybe I still don't understand your objections, but again, without seeing what he does, it is hard to find fault or agree.

 

[Saheim]

Funny you say - maximum damage with minimum effort because, when I was about to start a new school (while back) the instructor asked what my goals were. I told him my job expected me to restrain people with the least amount of force necessary but they'e not paying for my training and, to me, MA is about learning the most efficient and effective ways of breaking a human body. He smiled and said that was something he could help me with.

We had "follow ups" which yep, involved performing techniques on a downed opponent. Our logic - if he attacked us while he was up, we don't want him getting back up until we are gone and preferably not without assistance.

As for creating their own style/systen/art, that' what ALL arts are. Unless some "martial god" from another realm taught a system that has been unchanged since he/she/it did, EVERY martial art is a "made up" art. A human, or a group of humans (over time) strung together techniques that they found effective. The deciding factor me is simple - what evidence do they have these techniques or this system is combat effective? In old days, MA actually got used to kill other people and folks knew which methods actually worked. So... I tend to gravitate towards schools ran by folks who have been down in it - cops, soldiers, bouncers, or even just plain old bad @'s

 

[hoshin1600]

all styles were created by someone.

Have you met someone who developed their own style

Yes ....myself

When is it right to develop your own style

for me it was a natural progression. i had studied a few styles. one style in particular was my core and i gravitated to an older version of that style and thus i found myself outside of the modern standard curriculum that one needs to follow to be part of the organization. over time i put the division between the styles that i did aside and just looked at what i did as, what I do.

Do you trust people with such claims..

No. trust does not enter the equation. you can either do what you say you can do, or you cant. the proof is on the dojo floor. trust assumes a blind acceptance of someones word, this should not be accepted in martial arts. if you create your own art, it is on the floor for all to see and judge. there is no need to trust, unless you are completely new and know nothing about martial arts. and if i am not on the floor with you and your half way across the world, why should i care who or what you are and what you say you are?

especially of they also award themselves high ranking Dan grades

rank means nothing. even within legit organizations, all rank is a fiction based reality.

 

[oftheherd1]

Good questions
...
I have met him and I have attended his classes. Quite stylised but sold as self defence.
...

I did mean to ask how stylized would not qualify as self defense? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your objections.

To me, stylized would imply being taught in some specific way with no deviations allowed for the result being expected to be predictable. Non-stylized would imply being taught what was expected to be the best way, but allowing for differences with a student, based on mentality, body shape or height, or anything that the student might change to allow them to do it better than the way the school teaches; as long as the result is the expected result, and it is efficient.

I am thinking you may look at it differently.

 

[Danny T]

Right then part 3

Creating your own style

I am sure you have someone in your area who has created their own style of martial arts

Sure do. Several actually. Myself included.

Everyone who grows into the higher levels of anything will naturally develop and gravitate into their own way of doing things (style).

Maybe it is a old Japanese term

Maybe it is a mix of two different styles and languages (tak kwon jitsu)

Or Chinese or Filipino or Indonesian or Hindi or English or whatever language the creator chooses.

But how many art actually legit ?

For example I have a self proclaimed 8th Dan in my town who ha' somehow managed to make his style both ineffective and illegal. Possibly a clever marketing ploy as one cancels the other out.

If they were created what makes them illegitimate?
I really don't care what others do or don't do. I do what I do, know why I do it and continue to grow as I do so. Others do what they do. If it is good then it is good. If it is bad when their students experience good they will lose the student.

However

Have you met someone who developed their own style

Yes

When is it right to develop your own style

As you grow and you realize you have developed your own style.

Do you trust people with such claims.... especially of they also award themselves high ranking Dan grades?

Trust ???
Rank...rank means nothing but to whatever organization awards it. Would my rank in a job at a company have any importance at a completely different company? I don't believe so.

I believe the forum rules forbid naming names so let' keep the conversation general

Otherwise said 8th Dan will be named and shamed

Ok.

Why do you want to shame someone who you have nothing to do with over something that doesn't pertain to you?

 

[lklawson]

Right then part 3

Creating your own style

I am sure you have someone in your area who has created their own style of martial arts

Maybe it is a old Japanese term

Maybe it is a mix of two different styles and languages (tak kwon jitsu)

But how many art actually legit ?

For example I have a self proclaimed 8th Dan in my town who ha' somehow managed to make his style both ineffective and illegal. Possibly a clever marketing ploy as one cancels the other out.

However

Have you met someone who developed their own style

When is it right to develop your own style

Do you trust people with such claims.... especially of they also award themselves high ranking Dan grades?

The longer I'm alive and training, the less I care about this particular issue. The longer I'm around the more I care about questions such as "does the art do what the person claims it does?" and "is the person teaching able to effectively teach the elements of the art?" If the guy says that the art teaches effective self defense, health and strength, or spiritual enlightenment, does it actually do those things? Yes = 'nuff said. No = Ignore and don't recommend. If the guy is able to teach the art then, well enough, otherwise, don't recommend.

If the person is claiming some sort of history that gives the art or him special credibility then that needs to be true or else the person is a liar and, even if he's teaching "good stuff" I don't want to hang out with a liar.

But if someone says that he's teaching a martial art which he created then OK. Whatever. Does it do what he says? OK.

I believe the forum rules forbid naming names so let' keep the conversation general

Otherwise said 8th Dan will be named and shamed

Forum rules prohibit Fraud Busting. What constitutes fraud busting is a little bit flexible, but if a person gives himself rank, reporting as such is not fraud busting. Making claims about whether or not he deserves that rank or bla bla bla, that might be fraud busting.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[skribs]

I trust someone with their own style as much as I trust someone teaching an established style. To me, the name of the art isn't nearly as important as the one teaching me that art. If the master is good, it doesn't matter if it's Jiu-Jitsu, Karate, or Skribs Kwon Do. If the Master is not good, it doesn't matter if it's Judo, boxing, or Finlay-Do-Te. (Just kidding, OP).

If I were to make my own art, which at this point would consist of being a 2nd degree in Taekwondo, an orange belt in hapkido, having seen several self defense tips on YouTube, and watched a lot of Donnie Yen and Scott Adkins movies...maybe my credentials aren't great. But let's assume that either I don't care about that because I want to open up a school anyway, or I am a prodigy and need to get my own creative expression into the martial arts. In that case, I would name myself a black belt in the art.

When I train a student to be ready to test for his black belt, I would first create the 2nd degree black belt position, and promote myself, and then I would consider myself eligible to promote my student to black belt. When I have a student ready for the 2nd degree test, I would promote myself to 3rd degree first, and so on. It would be a strange art if it was like Ameri-Do-Te, where you have the 11th degree black belt training a bunch of colored belts, with no other black belts in the art. It would be like an Army that has a General and then a bunch of Lieutenants, with no Captains, Majors, or Colonels.

Maybe I'd start myself at 2nd or 3rd degree, and then keep pace above the other black belts until they were 4th or 5th degree. In either case, I would keep my rank close enough to my best students that there is a clear structure in the art.

I believe the forum rules forbid naming names so let' keep the conversation general

Otherwise said 8th Dan will be named and shamed

I'm not sure why this was necessary to include. This might be your reason for making this thread, but it doesn't add to the thread for anyone else.

 

[jobo]

Right then part 3

Creating your own style

I am sure you have someone in your area who has created their own style of martial arts

Maybe it is a old Japanese term

Maybe it is a mix of two different styles and languages (tak kwon jitsu)

But how many art actually legit ?

For example I have a self proclaimed 8th Dan in my town who ha' somehow managed to make his style both ineffective and illegal. Possibly a clever marketing ploy as one cancels the other out.

However

Have you met someone who developed their own style

When is it right to develop your own style

Do you trust people with such claims.... especially of they also award themselves high ranking Dan grades?

I believe the forum rules forbid naming names so let' keep the conversation general

Otherwise said 8th Dan will be named and shamed

I'm wondering in what way his,style is " illegal"

 

[hoshin1600]

When I train a student to be ready to test for his black belt, I would first create the 2nd degree black belt position, and promote myself, and then I would consider myself eligible to promote my student to black belt. When I have a student ready for the 2nd degree test, I would promote myself to 3rd degree first, and so on. It would be a strange art if it was like Ameri-Do-Te, where you have the 11th degree black belt training a bunch of colored belts, with no other black belts in the art. It would be like an Army that has a General and then a bunch of Lieutenants, with no Captains, Majors, or Colonels.

i understand your comment is theoretical but why not just skip the entire degree black belt thing and just call yourself the founder and promote students to the black belt degrees. there can only be one founder so your own rank would be irrelevant.

 

[skribs]

i understand your comment is theoretical but why not just skip the entire degree black belt thing and just call yourself the founder and promote students to the black belt degrees. there can only be one founder so your own rank would be irrelevant.

Interesting idea. Would be nice to have a number to put myself ahead of the others. Would also be nice to have a degree I can promote the next chairman to when I retire, or the others can vote on when I pass on, as I expect the art to outlive me.

 

[Headhunter]

Personally I dont pay attention to all that stuff. If someone wants to do their own thing fair play to them. I got my styles I train so their style isn't my concern. People can do what they like at the end of the day

 

[JR 137]

Interesting idea. Would be nice to have a number to put myself ahead of the others. Would also be nice to have a degree I can promote the next chairman to when I retire, or the others can vote on when I pass on, as I expect the art to outlive me.

How about just wearing a white belt or any other color belt and saying “I don’t have a student grade because I’m not a student, I’m the founder.” Problem solved. If it’s his system, why does he need a number/dan grade? Why can’t he promote anyone to any grade he feels they deserve? Why can’t he appoint whoever he wants to be his successor? If students don’t like that he doesn’t want a number grade, they can go somewhere else. I’m a school teacher; my students don’t grade me, I grade them. If I was still someone else’s student while I was a teacher, that would be different. But the guy running this school apparently no longer has a teacher. While MA is different, is it really that different after all?

If I started my own organization, should I carry over my grade from my previous organization? How will I promote? Who’s going to test me to ensure I’m meeting the grade criteria I set for myself? Why should I have to play that game?

 

[skribs]

How about just wearing a white belt or any other color belt and saying “I don’t have a student grade because I’m not a student, I’m the founder.” Problem solved. If it’s his system, why does he need a number/dan grade? Why can’t he promote anyone to any grade he feels they deserve? Why can’t he appoint whoever he wants to be his successor? If students don’t like that he doesn’t want a number grade, they can go somewhere else. I’m a school teacher; my students don’t grade me, I grade them. If I was still someone else’s student while I was a teacher, that would be different. But the guy running this school apparently no longer has a teacher. While MA is different, is it really that different after all?

If I started my own organization, should I carry over my grade from my previous organization? How will I promote? Who’s going to test me to ensure I’m meeting the grade criteria I set for myself? Why should I have to play that game?

By creating the requirements for a grade and then teaching those requirements, I'm obviously at least that grade. It would be a way for me to ensure there's a curriculum past 1st Dan, that I have to create the curriculum for 2nd Dan.

 

[Flying Crane]

By creating the requirements for a grade and then teaching those requirements, I'm obviously at least that grade. It would be a way for me to ensure there's a curriculum past 1st Dan, that I have to create the curriculum for 2nd Dan.

Well, there doesn’t actually have to be a curriculum past first dan. Or even past white belt, to be honest.

In the “less is more” school of thought, you could have a very short formal curriculum that is transmitted by any rank you choose. You then learn to get a lot of mileage out of that material. Perhaps there is some sense in making that level be shodan, it would symbolize transmission of the complete formalized curriculum. After that, it is just working to get better at it.

I used to train in a system that had an extensive curriculum all the way through 5th dan. It was endless. It was impossible. At some point it has to just end.

 

[Finlay]

How about just wearing a white belt or any other color belt and saying “I don’t have a student grade because I’m not a student, I’m the founder.” Problem solved. If it’s his system, why does he need a number/dan grade? Why can’t he promote anyone to any grade he feels they deserve? Why can’t he appoint whoever he wants to be his successor? If students don’t like that he doesn’t want a number grade, they can go somewhere else. I’m a school teacher; my students don’t grade me, I grade them. If I was still someone else’s student while I was a teacher, that would be different. But the guy running this school apparently no longer has a teacher. While MA is different, is it really that different after all?

If I started my own organization, should I carry over my grade from my previous organization? How will I promote? Who’s going to test me to ensure I’m meeting the grade criteria I set for myself? Why should I have to play that game?

Good point, I believe Aikido is organised that way.