Martial Arts & the Military

[Avcrad]

Hey everyone...

Just wanted to get your input:

I went through basic training with the US Army about 6 years ago at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri...at that time I was studying Chinese Kenpo. I was real anxious to see what the army was teaching in the hand-to-hand combat curriculum. I was real disappointed to see that they were teaching a REAL generic form of Goju-Ryu to the recruits in basic training. Not really anything too in-depth, just upward block-puch stuff. In your opinion, what would be an "acceptable" MA to teach in the military...keeping in, soldiers performing these techniques are wearing helmets, flak vest, and other gear which might restrict some movement...

 

[Shiatsu]

As a military member, they don't need to teach any of it. We are weapons people, and when is the last time we really fought with our hands or swords?

Certain Jobs such as PJ's ,SEALS, Green Berets, NCIS, OSI, CID would be taught different things, but to the general military positions it would be a waste of time. For work related purposes that is.

 

[arnisador]

If you search the site you'll find info. on the USMC's Corps-wide martial arts program and on the BJJ now being taught in the Army, for example.

 

[Shiatsu]

First, the Marines program is nothing special, I have observed it many times. And the "Army" is not teaching BJJ to everyone.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
First, the Marines program is nothing special, I have observed it many times. And the "Army" is not teaching BJJ to everyone.

I didn't say it was special; they do have one (discussion and links here), and participation is now mandatory.

I also said that BJJ was taught in the Army, which is correct; see here for example (FM 3-25.150 from 2002) and the discussion here. I didn't mean to imply that every unit had training in the full art of BJJ.

 

[gman]

I thought what we were taught was pretty bogus. A few throws and take downs. But we couldn't exactly spend a lot of time on it either. I think a blade art would be nice for the military. I, and most others in my battery, carried a knife at all times (in the field of coarse). It was great for killing those stupid MRE packages and camo netting that got stuck on everything usually paid a heavy price. You knew it was time to sharpen you blade after cutting through como wire a couple times.

 

[Shiatsu]

Exactly. Like I said only a certain few of us are taught anything above the basics, unless we learn it on our own.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

I too have seen the Marine Corps "Warrior Training" and was even asked my point of view on it by the Marine Instructor. I had to sort of scratch my head and say they were going to get alot of young men killed especially in their knife fighting techniques. I showed him a couple of "principles" out of my art (Ninpo) so he could expound on the training. Of course being a good Marine he wouldn't (actually he couldn't) change the curiculum.

I think for ground troops, anything that encorporates and enhances the use for their weapons and gear (Taijutsu) and ground work would be the best thing. Being a better shot is always a plus.

 

[ABN]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
As a military member, they don't need to teach any of it. We are weapons people, and when is the last time we really fought with our hands or swords?

I have to disagree with you here. You seem to be making the assumption that we will always be armed and equipped with Rules of Engagement that would allow us free rein to engage any and all threats with weapons. This is myopic. Presently we find ourselves deployed world wide in many areas where we are restrained from a weapons free posture due to the risk of collateral damage. Civil disturbances can not be settled with indiscriminate rifle fire, snipers can not always engage targets in areas built up by materiel and/or crowds. A soldier needs to have other weapons at his disposal including weapons that "can't be seen, until used." (V. Vasiliev)

Another problem is the fact that there is a decline in the warrior ethos of some combat support and combat service support elements. They think of themselves as their job descriptions, not as soldiers. Instruction in combatives contributes to the inculcation of this ethos. I don't necessarily agree that BJJ is the right method of hand to hand, but it's a start.

You ask when was the last time we fought H2H or with swords. I know of several occassions where fighting in Afghanistan was hand to hand and the bayonet was also used. Recently a soldier was decorated with a Silver Star for engaging three Taliban fighters in H2H after he was attacked. He killed two and neutralized the third. He suffered a broken collarbone but, at the end of the day he went home.

In Iraq, the use of civillian clothing and other subterfuge also places our soldiers at a disadvantage with only weapons. You need to have some skills in basic combatives if for no other reason, than to defuse a situation before it gets worse (i.e. he gets your weapon).


Food for thought,

andy

 

[IMAA]

Funny I ran accross this subject. I was just thinking about this alot this week.

I remember when I went thru basic back in 91 at Ft Hood Texas, our H2H was so lame and it was all of about an hour long training. I couldnt beleive it. It was so disapointing to see some of the techniques that I was taught from them that was supposed to save my life. HAHA...

I think they need some Edged weapon defense as well as going thru something like the same thing the Law Enforcement officers go thru ie. Defensive Tactics Course, joint manipulation, Pressure Point Control Tactics, basic strikes, combos etc...Alot of time training tactical weapons and empty hand counter's and strikes.

I have been thinking alot of the National Guard and Reserve components of the military. I had just this week contacted a Major of the US ARMY at Ft Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis and asked him if they would be interested in learning some edged weapons defense. Since he is a Brown belt at the same Karate dojo I attend he has seen some of my stuff and is getting me some contact's and so on....hopefully here in the next few weeks I'll be hearing something. I've assisted on training several Law Enforcement agencies in my community with a freind of mine who is chief of security and one of the head DT's instructors in our area. So if this comes back as a go I think it will be very detramental to the soldiers especially since alot of them are here after the first of the year being deported to Bosnia, and Kosovo. Where their main objective is security. which in this case they'll be more faced with the issues of using control tactics and empty hand form of defense rather than unloading a magazine into someone.