Martial Arts, genetics and talent vs. work ethic

mrt2

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Forgive me if this has already been put out there, but after a few weeks browsing these forums, I did not see this topic, so thought I would put it out there.

This may seem obvious, but some people are more talented at martial arts than others. I saw it in my previous practice. On my first day of white belt class, the first guy I saw when I came into the dojang was a green belt fighting a high red belt, and the green belt was winning. One of the guys in my white belt class in fairly short order became a great tournament fighter. And from time to time, I saw extremely talented people come up. I say from time to time because most people of average ability seemed to progress at about the same rate, assuming they trained at least twice a week. But some people came in as great fighters, or at least seemed to pick things up much more quickly than the average person.

But I am wondering is maybe martial arts schools don't like to talk about this. The observation is a lot clearer when you apply it to other sports. There are a lot of people that take up swimming, but unless you are born with a certain set of genetics, all the hard work will not turn someone like me into Michael Phelps. Same with basketball, same with tennis, same with just about any sport.

And the same is true of martial arts. In my past practice, there were people who were great fighters right away. And, IMO, it went beyond work ethic. Yes, the rock stars of the dojang did work very hard. But I think it went beyond that.

Which brings me to my next point. We all can't be the LeBron, or Phelps, or Aaron Rodgers of martial arts. In fact, chances are, most of us are not. But does our willingness to train 2, 3, or more days a week for years show something other than commitment? Do we actually posses some modicum of talent in this? Is there a weed out process that tends to lead people with poor aptitude for martial arts to quit? Or is it just commitment?
 

skribs

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I think you simply need to set realistic goals for yourself, based on a combination of your natural talent, what instruction is available, and what you are able to commit to martial arts.

For example, I am 29, and not in the greatest of shape. I don't have very good timing in sparring, I've always been small and nonathletic for my age. I work 14 hour days, so I don't have much time for physical conditioning. Chances are I'm not going to be a Taekwondo Olympian. Chances are I'm not going to hoist the championship belt in UFC.

However, I do continue to improve. My timing is slowly getting better. I'm getting more comfortable with a lot of the intermediate kicks and advanced kicks in Taekwondo. I'm making great strides in hapkido. But...I don't compete. Because if I compete, I'm going to be going against people who probably have better timing, in addition to being taller and in better shape. But my goal isn't to compete. Right now my goal is to learn to teach.

I have a similar issue, how I feel about students: I don't know which makes me more sad, a student with wasted talent or a student who tries their hardest and has no talent. We have some kids that grasp the concepts instantly and have decent flow as they do spinning kicks and such, but they always goof off and they don't polish their technique, so they never improve from when they initially learned it. You have others that practice for hours and hours, listen real hard to instruction and try really hard...but just don't have the coordination between mind and body to make things work.

I don't know which saddens me more. Those with natural talent that waste it by refusing to refine their technique, or those with a strong work ethic but who struggle with coordination.
 

Buka

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For the sake of discussion, let's exclude the top and bottom extremes. We'll omit the phenoms, the B.J Penns, The Joe Lewises, the LeBrons. And we'll omit those that pretty much can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

Instead, we'll just use the every day Joes and Janes. It's work ethic and stubbornness. And it's really hard work.

You brought up LeBron in basketball. Look at Larry Bird. If you're not familiar with him, look him up. Couldn't run fast, maybe as slow a runner that's ever played in the NBA. And couldn't jump worth a damn. Yet, he was way past successful. He knew where to run, when to jump, and he knew position a well as anyone who has played the game. His work ethic and practice remain legendary. And most important, his basketball IQ, which is a direct result of practice and study, was off the charts.

Look at Tom Brady, the quarterback. And it's okay to hate him, I hate a lot of athletes who take out my favorite teams. Brady can't run, can't throw, not strong, pretty fricken' clumsy. But so successful due to work ethic, which is legendary in the NFL. Now, while true that both those examples border on being fanatics, the results really can't be questioned.

In Martial arts, especially the striking Arts, you'll get people who come in as seriously gifted athletes. And they zoom ahead of every other beginner from the git go. But they usually don't last. You know why? Not because things came easy to them and they didn't appreciate it, but because many of the people that they dominated at the beginning eventually catch up. Then pass them. The gifted ones, a lot of times, just can't take that. They quit.

I've had so many students who were just average at life itself, never mind the Arts. But a lot of them worked hard. Really, really hard. And as some years passed, you would look at your assistants and whisper, "Is it my imagination or is Joe Schmo becoming a force to be reckoned with?" And Joe Schmo, was indeed, becoming beast.

In my opinion....it's not genetics and it's not talent. It's work ethic.
 
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mrt2

mrt2

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For the sake of discussion, let's exclude the top and bottom extremes. We'll omit the phenoms, the B.J Penns, The Joe Lewises, the LeBrons. And we'll omit those that pretty much can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

Instead, we'll just use the every day Joes and Janes. It's work ethic and stubbornness. And it's really hard work.

You brought up LeBron in basketball. Look at Larry Bird. If you're not familiar with him, look him up. Couldn't run fast, maybe as slow a runner that's ever played in the NBA. And couldn't jump worth a damn. Yet, he was way past successful. He knew where to run, when to jump, and he knew position a well as anyone who has played the game. His work ethic and practice remain legendary. And most important, his basketball IQ, which is a direct result of practice and study, was off the charts.

Look at Tom Brady, the quarterback. And it's okay to hate him, I hate a lot of athletes who take out my favorite teams. Brady can't run, can't throw, not strong, pretty fricken' clumsy. But so successful due to work ethic, which is legendary in the NFL. Now, while true that both those examples border on being fanatics, the results really can't be questioned.

In Martial arts, especially the striking Arts, you'll get people who come in as seriously gifted athletes. And they zoom ahead of every other beginner from the git go. But they usually don't last. You know why? Not because things came easy to them and they didn't appreciate it, but because many of the people that they dominated at the beginning eventually catch up. Then pass them. The gifted ones, a lot of times, just can't take that. They quit.

I've had so many students who were just average at life itself, never mind the Arts. But a lot of them worked hard. Really, really hard. And as some years passed, you would look at your assistants and whisper, "Is it my imagination or is Joe Schmo becoming a force to be reckoned with?" And Joe Schmo, was indeed, becoming beast.

In my opinion....it's not genetics and it's not talent. It's work ethic.
I know Larry Bird, and I know Tom Brady. FWIW, I disagree about both Bird and Brady. Even those guys are off the charts on talent, and perhaps in their cases, talent is as much a mental as a physical thing. But the fact is, Bird led his college team to an undefeated regular season and the NCAA tournament and lost the championship game to Michigan State and their leader, Magic Johnson.

That said, I suppose I can use the examples of Bird and Brady as a way of remembering that martial arts is a mental as well as a physical activity.
 

Buka

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I know Larry Bird, and I know Tom Brady. FWIW, I disagree about both Bird and Brady. Even those guys are off the charts on talent, and perhaps in their cases, talent is as much a mental as a physical thing. But the fact is, Bird led his college team to an undefeated regular season and the NCAA tournament and lost the championship game to Michigan State and their leader, Magic Johnson.

That said, I suppose I can use the examples of Bird and Brady as a way of remembering that martial arts is a mental as well as a physical activity.

Yes, but Bird led his college team as a man who couldn't run and couldn't jump. And not even in regular fitness levels, never mind in NBA and NFL levels, Bird and Brady are way below average.

But their work ethics are way above.
 
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mrt2

mrt2

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Respectfully, I think you missed my point. Hard work with some talent beats talent without hard work. But, a lot of talent plus hard work beat just hard work almost every time.
 
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mrt2

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Yes, but Bird led his college team as a man who couldn't run and couldn't jump. And not even in regular fitness levels, never mind in NBA and NFL levels, Bird and Brady are way below average.

But their work ethics are way above.
OK, but that aside, what about the other part of my post. Do people who lack talent weed themselves out over time?
 

pdg

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Pondering...

I'm not sure how relevant team sports are for comparison purposes. A person with mediocre physical performance can put a lot tactically into a team, can help control the flow of a game, can direct others in an almost subconscious fashion, can motivate with or without words and/or actions - and because of that can be a roaring success.

While I'm certainly not belittling the work it took the named individuals (and others similar), can the same be said of people in solo activities? Are there, for random example, any relatively talentless golfers/drivers/tennisists (;)) who succeed despite not actually being much good physically?


In MA, I believe there's more opportunity for satisfaction in personal advancement without comparison to others (like skribs having teaching aspirations), so raw talent is less important unless you're chasing medals.

The flipside is that it's not usually a team effort, so the mediocre performer surely is less likely to find competitive success.

There's a level of interest too, a woeful lack of talent may cause someone to lose interest because they don't feel they can advance - the ones with exceptional natural talent may lose interest because they don't feel challenged.

Maybe more important is the teaching. Does the teacher try to help those with little talent or ignore them because they're not good enough?

If the person really can't perform physically, should they be 'allowed' to advance just because they work hard? They might study and show dedication, but where is the point when that's just not enough...

Essentially, in an activity where you only rely on your own performance, is just hard work really able to compensate for a total lack of ability?
 

CB Jones

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Respectfully, I think you missed my point. Hard work with some talent beats talent without hard work. But, a lot of talent plus hard work beat just hard work almost every time.

No I get the point you are trying to make. But worrying about genetics and natural talent is pointless and out of your control. Instead put in work and focus on the things that you have control of and find ways to overcome your disadvantages.

Mugsy Bogues didn't sit around and whine about only being 5'3".....instead he figured out how to use his advantages he had instead of focusing on the disadvantages that he had no control of.

Like Buka said in the world of Joes and Janes...its who is hungriest and willing to put in the work that rises to the top.
 

Buka

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OK, but that aside, what about the other part of my post. Do people who lack talent weed themselves out over time?

I have to think about this for a bit.
 

Anarax

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Forgive me if this has already been put out there, but after a few weeks browsing these forums, I did not see this topic, so thought I would put it out there.
Just an FYI because you're new here. Feel free to post whatever you want, sometimes the same topic can cause a different kind of conversation. Just look at the dozen or so threads on the MMA vs Wing Chun fight.

This may seem obvious, but some people are more talented at martial arts than others. I saw it in my previous practice. On my first day of white belt class, the first guy I saw when I came into the dojang was a green belt fighting a high red belt, and the green belt was winning.
There are so many factors that go into belt rank and how they're awarded. Some martial arts schools use different sets of criteria for belt promotion. Some promote based on the duration of training others use skill proficiency and some use a bit of both. There might be more to the story with the Green and Red belt that you may not know. Maybe the Red belt was going easy on the Green belt, Red might have been injured or tired, etc.

One of the guys in my white belt class in fairly short order became a great tournament fighter. And from time to time, I saw extremely talented people come up. I say from time to time because most people of average ability seemed to progress at about the same rate, assuming they trained at least twice a week.
Some people have a better aptitude in some things than others, what interest us will also play a factor in our skills. Meaning if that student had a strong interest for tournaments, he will be more likely to commit more of himself to tournament training.
There are a lot of people that take up swimming, but unless you are born with a certain set of genetics, all the hard work will not turn someone like me into Michael Phelps. Same with basketball, same with tennis, same with just about any sport.
There are scientific parameters for certain athletes. Michael Phelps for example has a body that is shaped perfectly for swimming. However; martial arts is much more complex than swimming and there are more factors at work to become a skilled martial artist than a skilled swimmer. For example; my Kali teacher is a very tall and broad man(not fat), but Kali was created by Filipinos who stand around 5 foot 3 inches tall. However; my instructor is a phenomenal martial artist and highly skilled in Kali. Are there some things in Kali that he has a harder time with than a shorter person would? Yes, but he's extremely dedicated and learned how to adapt given his stature.

And the same is true of martial arts. In my past practice, there were people who were great fighters right away. And, IMO, it went beyond work ethic. Yes, the rock stars of the dojang did work very hard. But I think it went beyond that.
Here's where things get a bit complicated. When you rely on your strongest attribute you can neglect others. I've seen athletic guys in martial arts who could hit hard and fast, but they lacked heart and determination. IMO, in martial arts heart and dedication trumps everything else.

But does our willingness to train 2, 3, or more days a week for years show something other than commitment? Do we actually posses some modicum of talent in this? Is there a weed out process that tends to lead people with poor aptitude for martial arts to quit? Or is it just commitment?
That's difficult to say. I've left numerous schools but I never quit because of the difficulty of the training. The poor attitude and talent varies from schools to school and person to person. Some schools crack down more on bad behavior than others. As far as talent goes that depends on the quality of training, if they go to a school with poor quality training then they're probably not going to develop much.
 

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Martial arts is something anyone can be good at if they work hard. Of course some people are naturally better and things come easier that's life. But martial arts is so diverse it's not just one thing. Someone could be naturally great at kicks but not at punches some people can be better at forms than sparring it's just about finding out what your good and bad at and practicing what you're bad at
 

drop bear

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I don't think 2 days a week is a realistic model to judge hard work vs natural talent.

Work 6 days a week to someone's two and we might have a comparison.
 

_Simon_

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Really interesting... Yeah there are definitely those who are just naturally gifted. No doubt about it. And to me they'll progress faster just due to things working in their favour of having a great biomechanical structure for it, coordination, balance, timing etc.

And it's not to discount the hard work/work ethic aspect, but I don't think every single person can reach exactly the same level as such, there are too many variables. Everyone can improve, but I don't think everyone can reach exactly the same pinnacle. It's a different pinnacle for them individually, but nevertheless a pinnacle. (Obviously winning a world title is an objective measure, but I guess I'm moreso referring to physical skill and ability)

Not that this was really talked about as such, and work ethic will always trump genetics, but it's hard to really compare individuals, because the definition of what being at their peak is different to another's (according to their relative progression). To a person who is quite disabled, working their way to overcome all the obstacles and be able to break a board or do a head high kick is a phenomenal progression for them. Whereas someone who is incredibly fit and well conditioned, winning a world championship may be a massive progression for them. So it's hard to say where the genetics line is and the work ethic line is... but really interesting topic!

Just some random ponderings to throw in the mix haha ;)
 

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The flipside is that it's not usually a team effort, so the mediocre performer surely is less likely to find competitive success.


I would say being a fighter is about team work, an MMA fighter however talented, will not become successful without a good team behind them. it requires everyone to do their job well for the fighter to be able to do their work well.
How you measure success though for a martial artist who does not compete is going to be quite different, that would be about personal goals which means if we set realistic ones and work hard will succeed with talent not coming into it. If you are 'talented' you set higher standards for yourself, which you can fail if you don't work hard.
 

pdg

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How you measure success though for a martial artist who does not compete is going to be quite different, that would be about personal goals which means if we set realistic ones and work hard will succeed with talent not coming into it. If you are 'talented' you set higher standards for yourself, which you can fail if you don't work hard.

Well that's partly what I was trying to say - is the measure of success just fighting (as the OP cited a lower grade winning against a higher one)?

I would say being a fighter is about team work, an MMA fighter however talented, will not become successful without a good team behind them. it requires everyone to do their job well for the fighter to be able to do their work well.

Yes, a good student (who is initially a mediocre or poor talent) can make a good coach a great one, and a good training team a great one.

But on the day, they have to apply the tools by themselves.

I'm obviously a driving god a mediocre race driver, I could have the best team behind me (designers, engineers, mechanics, trainers) but if, on the day, I can't get that car to the finish it counts for nowt. Can hard work really replace or imbue the requisite talent equivalent?

Again, a flip - if someone is so talented that it makes them too self centered - they don't believe they need anyone behind them, nobody else has anything useful to offer - they can drag the team down.
 
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mrt2

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Not that this was really talked about as such, and work ethic will always trump genetics, but it's hard to really compare individuals, because the definition of what being at their peak is different to another's (according to their relative progression). To a person who is quite disabled, working their way to overcome all the obstacles and be able to break a board or do a head high kick is a phenomenal progression for them. Whereas someone who is incredibly fit and well conditioned, winning a world championship may be a massive progression for them. So it's hard to say where the genetics line is and the work ethic line is... but really interesting topic!

Just some random ponderings to throw in the mix haha ;)
For sure. I am coming back to martial arts not disabled, but a lot older, slower, less flexible, and heavier than I was as a teenager. IDK if competition is something for me. If I have to fight guys in their 20s, I imagine tournament fighting might not be for me. If there is an over 40 or over 50 group, than who knows? I am a ways from that as I haven't had the chance to spar yet, and I can see just from watching how my current school spars, that it is a little different from how I sparred in my former school. Not saying one is better than the other, but in this regard, my current teacher teaches fighting differently than my former teacher.

All that said, one of the reasons I came back to Martial arts is, I was at least a little bit successful at it in the past. Not in the sense of competition, as I was a mediocre tournament fighter, but in the sense that I could fight at all, that I could learn and execute the curriculum, and that at times, I could train really hard in the way I have seldom done before or since. So that is what I am hoping to get back to.
 

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Yes, a good student (who is initially a mediocre or poor talent) can make a good coach a great one, and a good training team a great one.


Not so much. I'm talking about fighters, pro fighters. The fighter doesn't make the team great, it's the other way around. A person can be a talented fighter but without the input of coaches, corners etc they won't succeed quite frankly. A fighter needs someone to pick his opponents, fighters aren't that good at that ( in my experience of nearly 20 years with pro and amateur fighters), he/she needs someone who can analyse his opponents and work out tactics, he/she needs preparing for a fight, a fighter needs sparring partners, hands wrapping, etc etc.

Your racing car analogy doesn't work, with MMA the team supports and hones the fighter, raw talent is fine, hard work is fine but it's a team event, why do you think fighters always thank their teams after a fight? Over the years I have seen extremely talented fighters fall by the wayside because of the lack of a good team, sometimes they think they can do it all on their own and they can't. Rather than car racing it's more horse racing, the jockey doesn't do it all however talented, again the horse doesn't do it all however talented, it is team work that makes a winner. It's the work rider doing the workouts with the horse, the trainer picking the races, the vet checking the horses health, the jockey planning the tactics that suit the horse, even the horse box driver making sure it's a smooth journey to the course and the stable lad mucking out the stable, staying with sick and injured horses through the night as well as feeding them properly, team work makes champions whether MMA or horse racing.
 

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