Shicomm
Purple Belt
With the typical US contract 'craze' i'm happy that it's not that big in europe...
Martial Arts Contracts
- Thread starter MJS
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
If I am in college, and come down with the flu or just don't feel like going to class for 3 days because its 80 degrees with a cool breeze, and perfect beach weather, the college is still taking my money. They're not giving me a refund because I chose not to go. Again, I go back to a weeks vacation. My light bill isn't going to be credited a week because the lights weren't on.
Asst. isntructors are usually part of every school. When I taught on a regular basis, I used them all the time. However, unless it was a Black Belt, the asst. would usually just work on material that the student(s) already knew. Teaching of new material came from BB's.
See my above reply.
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that a) either the school didn't fully disclose everything or b) you failed to ask about the contracts. So, whos fault is this? I say both.
I think the person who wrote this list needs to re-examine it, but for the sake of the thread, I'll comment on the questions.
1) I disagree. If I'm sick, and another qualified BB is teaching, why should I refund any money?
2) I agree/disagree. I agree that the restroom should be clean, stocked, etc. However, if someone makes a mess, and is fully capable of cleaning it, they should clean it, not me.
3) Usually demos are done by a select group, who know what it entails. They are giving their time, and while I don't agree with cash, they may be 'rewarded' with something for their time.
4) Why does it have to be a Sat. and between those hours?
5) A handboook should be given out for free. However, don't just put the job of explaining things on the owner. The student should ask questions and know what is required of them. If they can't commit, then training isn't for them.
6) Agree. But again the student should be asking questions as well.
7) Agree, classes should start on time. And the student should also show up on time as well. Again, it goes back to taking some responsibility for yourself! I disagree with giving a refund. Perhaps, by your way of thinking, if the student is late, the teacher should also charge them $5.
8) If the student is not in the school, I don't believe the teacher should tell them that they can't do certain things. But, if they are in the school, either before or after a class, and they're fooling around, you can be sure that I will say something. If someone gets hurt, are you telling me that the parent won't come crying, asking why the teacher didn't say something, when all along, the student should have some respect for the school, and know that when you're in the school, that is NOT the time to fool around!
9) Agree.
10) Depends. If one student is fooling around, and that behavior causes others to misbehave also, then you can bet I'm holding them responsible.
11) I can go along with that.
12) Agree.
13) Disagree.
14) Disagree! Again, where is the responsibility of the student??? Yes, if they're late, they should wait to be acknowledged, and perform the warmups that they missed.
Mr. Redmond, IMO, needs to re-evaluate this list.
Lynne
Master of Arts
Thanks for your post, Master Terry.
shihansmurf
Black Belt
If you are in college and elect not to go to class that is your option and the school doesn't owe you any money. That, however, isn't what I asked.
If you as the instructor fail to teach, is the student entitled to a refund? When I was in college and a class would get canceled after I had paid tuition I certainly received one. Likewise, if I go on vacation I don't expect not to pay for my utilities during my absence, yet if service is interrupted I expect my bill pro-rated for the missing time. I simply think that if I have paid for a service and the person responsible fails to provide the service that they have taken my money for, then they owe me that money back.
I don't hold karate teachers to any different standers than I do anyone else that I transact with.
You Assistant Instructor policy is more acceptable, yet if you advertise that you are the teacher, as a selling point, and then don't actually instruct me. That is a problem. I'm not saying that that is how you do things but it is what I am specifically what I am speaking out against.
My personal experience involved an instructor who refused to cancel my contract when I deployed to Iraq, in spite of things like the military clause that was directly in the contract that I signed. I ended up in court and all of my financial losses were recouped, yet my credit rating still took a hit. I'll never enter into another contractual agreement for martial arts classes again.
I'm only going to reply to one of your responses to Mr Redmonds Bill. I find your response to #13 interesting.
If the school were to close and the student had paid you in advance for the next three months, for example, do you think that the student would be entitled to a refund? If he is paying on a contractual basis, should this be voided? I know instances in which schools closed and neither action was taken. The school just kept the money/ continued to force payments.
I think that the stipulations in article 13 are intentionally exaggerated for effect I think the base idea still holds.
While I don't agree with all of the Bill of Rights, I think the purpose was to demonstrate how one sided these contracts can be. The Articles are extreme to illustrate the absurd level of control and outright fraudulent behavior exhibited my many of these predatory business practices. I feel the point the author is trying to make is that if the situation were reversed, how many of those "teachers" would sign the thing and enter into that sort of relationship. I could be wrong, just my take on it.
Also, I would like to say I appreciate your responses to this thread. I find it interesting, and mean no disrespect to you in this line of questioning.If you take any offense then please accept my preemptive apology.
Mark
RevIV
Black Belt
Do you have to sign the 3 year agreement to get into the black belt club? If this is so,and there is no additional fee for the program, then that is one great business strategy. I mean no sarcasm at all there. As a business owner, that is one thought that has never come up in any of the business meetings i have ever attended. I still struggle with one year agreements right now but i will store that thought in the file. A great majority of my students have been with me 5 plus years and if that is to be the norm for the rest of my life (that would be great) then these agreements would help long term students who I have known for years seal in there rates and show banks long-term agreements.
RevIV
Black Belt
I believe there is a big difference between European and US based schools. Not on quality but on ability to running the schools in general. When you say "typical US contract 'craze' " you do not take into consideration the economical and social differences that we are dealing with. -- I will just leave it at that --
RevIV
Black Belt
RevIV
Black Belt
Thats all just wrong and makes me sick that martial arts schools would do that. First, thank you for serving. I have had many students go into the service and off to Irag, I could never imagine someone forcing you to pay while you were off making sure they had the right to even run a dojo. See, again, agreements for some are a safety net for further endeavors, not as a way to get every dime no matter what.
as for school that goes out of business good luck trying to get that back. Ethically and contractually i would think the people should get their money back, reality, good luck.
still learning
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Hello, Contracts can be written any way and be accepted by anyone....Let the buyers beware....
Most Sensi/owners know...there will always be students who sign-up and after a few weeks..months or a year....they do not want to go anymore...and for those parents who sign up for long terms? .....Can get struck with another monthly bills!
It take two sides to break a contract....Owners should know better? ..that a loss of a student (s) happen ALL THE TIME!
Owner/Teachers.....KNOW this well...students quiting is a high percentage!!! Therefore should be more willing to helping out the parents and end the contracts fairly...who knows maybe they will come back?
Remember they are NOT buying property or a car or furunitures.....just lessons......
Any schools who forces payment after a student loses interest? ....who fault? ......
Yes! Schools may have big bills to pay for rent,untilties,insurance and so on......AT the same time the nature of the business will always have LOSS of students and is expected or should be expected....
Those martial art schools that force payments for students who quit is GIVING EVERYONE ELSE A BAD NAME!!!!
Aloha ......Instructors/OWNERS'S should be more GROWN UP ON THIS!
Most Sensi/owners know...there will always be students who sign-up and after a few weeks..months or a year....they do not want to go anymore...and for those parents who sign up for long terms? .....Can get struck with another monthly bills!
It take two sides to break a contract....Owners should know better? ..that a loss of a student (s) happen ALL THE TIME!
Owner/Teachers.....KNOW this well...students quiting is a high percentage!!! Therefore should be more willing to helping out the parents and end the contracts fairly...who knows maybe they will come back?
Remember they are NOT buying property or a car or furunitures.....just lessons......
Any schools who forces payment after a student loses interest? ....who fault? ......
Yes! Schools may have big bills to pay for rent,untilties,insurance and so on......AT the same time the nature of the business will always have LOSS of students and is expected or should be expected....
Those martial art schools that force payments for students who quit is GIVING EVERYONE ELSE A BAD NAME!!!!
Aloha ......Instructors/OWNERS'S should be more GROWN UP ON THIS!
The one argument that I don't see as being valid here is the comparison of Martial Arts contracts to a number of other services and assets.
I've heard a lot of (not just here, from many people) "Do you still pay for your car if you don't drive it?" "Do you still pay for your house if you go on vacation?" "Do you still pay for electricity if you aren't there/don't use it?" "Do you still pay for a gym membership when you don't use it?" And I really just can't see the connection.
Let's look at the asset based comparisons first. Your house, your Car, your ______, you HAVE in your possession. You are paying for the right to retain the property. If you don't drive your car doesn't matter - you still have it. You could still sell it, you can still store things in it, etc. You are in physical control of the asset. The same with your house, the "owner" of the house does not have rights of occupancy on the property. When you get a loan such as this, the bank owns the asset and you are paying them monthly for the right to use it until you do own it. The alternative is, of course, saving for 5 years BEFORE buying it and paying cash. It is just a long term payment instead of a single payment.
Ok, let's look at pro-rated services such as electricity. You don't pay for electricity that you don't use....that is what meters are for. You pay PER KILOWAT HOUR. If you only use 100, you only pay for 100. The thing that most people don't see is just how much electricity your house sucks up when you don't have anything on.
Ok, no services such as gym memberships. In this case, you are paying for unrestricted access. You can go there at any time, as long as they are open. You are also usually paying for services such as classes, personal trainers, etc. In this case, your monthly or yearly fee goes toward overhead, paying their EXTENSIVE staff, including cleaning. A place such as this can't afford to allow customers pay per visit, because of the unlimited access...basically you can go in there and stay for 18 hours if you want. Of course, they could pay by hour, but then it comes down to a business decision. Plus, it is much better for the customer. To support operations, if you paid by hour or by visit....no one could afford it.
In the case of a martial arts studio. You are paying for a class, for the instructor's time, and for the service that he provides you. He provides the space (just like a music lesson) and the knowledge. Yes, to maintain operations, an instructor must charge accordingly to support the space (i.e. rent, overhead, etc). But in this case, you are paying a person directly to provide a teaching service. You get no asset (except knowledge, which cannot be measured), you get no unlimited access, you are limited to the instructor's schedule, etc.
That is all. I see purposes for having and not having contracts. The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause. But the comparisons that I've listed are used a lot to support arguments and I really just can't see the connection.
I've heard a lot of (not just here, from many people) "Do you still pay for your car if you don't drive it?" "Do you still pay for your house if you go on vacation?" "Do you still pay for electricity if you aren't there/don't use it?" "Do you still pay for a gym membership when you don't use it?" And I really just can't see the connection.
Let's look at the asset based comparisons first. Your house, your Car, your ______, you HAVE in your possession. You are paying for the right to retain the property. If you don't drive your car doesn't matter - you still have it. You could still sell it, you can still store things in it, etc. You are in physical control of the asset. The same with your house, the "owner" of the house does not have rights of occupancy on the property. When you get a loan such as this, the bank owns the asset and you are paying them monthly for the right to use it until you do own it. The alternative is, of course, saving for 5 years BEFORE buying it and paying cash. It is just a long term payment instead of a single payment.
Ok, let's look at pro-rated services such as electricity. You don't pay for electricity that you don't use....that is what meters are for. You pay PER KILOWAT HOUR. If you only use 100, you only pay for 100. The thing that most people don't see is just how much electricity your house sucks up when you don't have anything on.
Ok, no services such as gym memberships. In this case, you are paying for unrestricted access. You can go there at any time, as long as they are open. You are also usually paying for services such as classes, personal trainers, etc. In this case, your monthly or yearly fee goes toward overhead, paying their EXTENSIVE staff, including cleaning. A place such as this can't afford to allow customers pay per visit, because of the unlimited access...basically you can go in there and stay for 18 hours if you want. Of course, they could pay by hour, but then it comes down to a business decision. Plus, it is much better for the customer. To support operations, if you paid by hour or by visit....no one could afford it.
In the case of a martial arts studio. You are paying for a class, for the instructor's time, and for the service that he provides you. He provides the space (just like a music lesson) and the knowledge. Yes, to maintain operations, an instructor must charge accordingly to support the space (i.e. rent, overhead, etc). But in this case, you are paying a person directly to provide a teaching service. You get no asset (except knowledge, which cannot be measured), you get no unlimited access, you are limited to the instructor's schedule, etc.
That is all. I see purposes for having and not having contracts. The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause. But the comparisons that I've listed are used a lot to support arguments and I really just can't see the connection.
bowser666
2nd Black Belt
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Contracts in my opinion are a waste and unfair to the student. I do believe the best thing si month to month, or to offer a discount if a student wishes to pay for no more than 3 months in advance to get a cheaper rate. Extended contracts are crap though, because life happens and sometimes the contracts cant be fulfilled and have to be broken etc... I unfortunately studied under a USSD school in Massachusetts that was all about contracts and many people were conned. Sad story...............
rick_tsdmdk
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Contracts are used in most legitimate businesses - banking, cell phones, television, health clubs - you sign up for a 1 or 2 year deal.
Why should martial arts be any different? After all, we constantly tell people it is a life long journey. How does a month to month deal support a life long goal?
Why should martial arts be any different? After all, we constantly tell people it is a life long journey. How does a month to month deal support a life long goal?
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Honestly, I don't want to waste my time on the students who are not committed enough to be there. I do allow up to a free month of training before they choose either to commit or not. If they do commit to it though, I will keep up my end and I expect them to keep theirs. I use contracts because they spell out the obligations for both sides. Frankly, I have far more people who sign them with no intention of ever paying than those who I enforce it against their will. Also, I don't want them to drop out and keep collecting their money, I want them to keep the mutual commitment we made to each other in the first place.
BTW, by law in the USA an owner must cancel the contract if their is a documented, legitimate medical reason or if the student moves out of range of the school. I am also open and reasonable about legitimate reasons that someone may be unable to train. But to me "Johhny's lost interest" is not one. Kids never quit anything; parents LET them quit. We are supposd to be teaching character skills like discipline. Without commitment there can be no discipline. IMO, the instructors who don't do this are really doing a dis-service to their students and are the ones who are really copping out because they'sd rather not be bothered with it and don't care enough about the students in the first place. (gets out asbestos for the flaming that is sure to come).
BTW, by law in the USA an owner must cancel the contract if their is a documented, legitimate medical reason or if the student moves out of range of the school. I am also open and reasonable about legitimate reasons that someone may be unable to train. But to me "Johhny's lost interest" is not one. Kids never quit anything; parents LET them quit. We are supposd to be teaching character skills like discipline. Without commitment there can be no discipline. IMO, the instructors who don't do this are really doing a dis-service to their students and are the ones who are really copping out because they'sd rather not be bothered with it and don't care enough about the students in the first place. (gets out asbestos for the flaming that is sure to come).
shihansmurf
Black Belt
I think that most of the problem is that a few of us seem to be debating different points.
I'll clarify my position.
1. If a student, that has signed a contract, elects due to no extenuating circumstance, to not attend class then that student is fully liable for payment.
2. If the teacher doesn't provide the service that were promised to the student, in the manner that they were provided, then the instructor is at fault and owes the student a refund.
3. The field of martial arts instruction, irrespective of what other baggage we wish to attach to it, is a business just as any other field of instruction for pay. This means, for better or worse, that the student is the consumer and the teacher is the seller of his services. An instructor that fails to maintain his end of the buyer/seller relationship is at fault.
4. On the subject of Assistant Instructors, I am personally ambivilant. If, however, that status of the instructor is used as the selling point to get me to purchase his product(i.e. instructional time from him) and I am instead being taught by someone else then the seller is at fault. For example, if I sign up for lessons in BJJ from Royce Gracie i expect to get taught by Royce Gracie, especially if the advert pushes this as a selling point. If I get there and I am not being taught by Royce Gracie and instead being taught by Billy Joe the Brown Belt who is being used as unpaid labor so that he can earn teaching time, will there will be issues. This is bait and switch. Oh, and being told that I have to "earn" the privilege of training with Royce Gracie, after I have paid to do so is equally crap. The privilege was earned when they accepted my cash.
Note please that I have never had an experience with the Gracies. I just picked his name for the recongnition factor.
As far as the comparisons go, they are all just being used to illustrate the point that if you have paid for a good/service and the seller doesn't provide that service then they are in default. It isn't the specifics at debate, although you have raised some interesting points and I'll have to give them some thought, more so the underlying principle.
Your statement of "The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause" is absolutely correct. I agree 100%. Most of these contracts are absurdly one sided with no enforcement clauses for the student to ensure that they receive the product that they are paying for. This is a problem.
That being said, once a student signs a contract I believe tha they should be held to it. Caveat Emptor. I just won't sign one ever again, and I do my best to prevent other from haveing a similar experience to mine.
Mark
pete
Master Black Belt
We've been operating a pretty successful studio since Jan '06. We teach Tai Chi Chuan (and some Bagua), Yoga, and have a kids program in American Kenpo. All classes are paid on a per-class basis (no monthly fees, much less contracts). My wife and I teach ALL classes, and we do not charge any membership fees, belt testing fees, and provide kenpo students with their first uniform and patches (as they earn them) at no cost... however, they do buy replacements as they outgrow or otherwise need replacement.
I'll try and answer the Bill of Rights as they apply to us:
the studio owners teach all classes. if for some reason we were not to teach a class, the student would have the option to either take the class or not. our students only pay for classes they take.
so where's the problem?
Pete
I'll try and answer the Bill of Rights as they apply to us:
.
the studio owners teach all classes. if for some reason we were not to teach a class, the student would have the option to either take the class or not. our students only pay for classes they take.
yes this is how we operate. we do not have students do our work as studio owners. students take classes, and then get on with their lives.
we do not use our students as props for advertising. we do rely on word of mouth, and we do not offer any monetary or promotional gifts for bringing in new students. if an existing student brings in a friend, or otherwise promotes our school, they will likely receive a thank you.
this is a little strange. we do not even offer classes on Saturdays, so why would we schedule rank exams then? we offer rank exams, as appropriate, during class time. when a student is ready, they are given a few weeks notice to prepare as candidates, and will be tested if ready. there is no automatic promotion, but that said, due to our 'process' we have not had occassion to fail anyone... yet.
we don't have any by-laws, rules or guidelines. we also don't have any membership agreements or fees to be refunded.
sure, we disclose our class rates, and also disclose that there are no membership fees, no rank test fees, no charge for first uniform, etc. there are no required purchases, even if a kid rips or 'forgets' his uniform, he may take the class in 'civvies'. no problem.
. well, i don't think my wall clock has a second hand, so not sure about this one... but there are no 'refunds'. if the student thinks he is getting cheated out of time, he doesn't have to take the class. a student is only charged for classes he attends.
that's cool too. many of my adult students take tai chi with me, while enrolled in other martial arts programs elsewhere. we use english in all of our classes, if we reference a chinese word, english explanation is always given. we use no titles and are addressed on a first name basis by all students, even the youngest kids. i encourage my youngest students to take part in other activities in addition to (and sometimes at the expense of) my classes... such as music, art, sports, dance, etc. and will award patches (at my expense) based on school work or extra-curriculars.
yep, that is up to the individual, not me
well, not sure what the point is here, but no students are responsible for teaching... but there is a lot to learn through supervised cooperative learning.
students are not required to join anything, just take classes.
good point. as an instructor, your responsibility is to the students.
. no problem. student pays for class. if we were to go out of business or close down, we are square with all of our students.
cool. i always tell my students, i don't care if you are late, you still pay the same for the class and i get to do less work!.
so where's the problem?
Pete
bowser666
2nd Black Belt
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I just do not understand the big fear of letting students pay month to month. By implementing contracts it simply shows that the "business" , notice I did not say dojo/dojang , is motivated to keep your money. Priorities are backwards in my opinion. Yes i understand nothing in life is free but if the quality instruction is their and you are confident in your school, then students will keep coming back. Not for fear of a contract. Just my $.02
shihansmurf
Black Belt
Pete,
The way you run you class sounds like a great placet o train.
Thanks for the well thought out reply.
Mark
The way you run you class sounds like a great placet o train.
Thanks for the well thought out reply.
Mark
shinbushi
Green Belt
You obviously have never run a commercial school. Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school. If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business. This is far from the case.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #40
If a substitute comes in to teach the class, a service is still being provided. People need to accept and understand that things may come up, ie: being sick, death in the family, etc. All things that can't be avoided. If I was scheduled to teach a class, but got sick, and had another BB step in to replace me, again, the service is still being provided, so no refund should be given.
So you're telling me that during a storm, when the power gets knocked out for 2 hrs. the utility co. should give 2 hrs of credit? Good luck with that one.
Agreed. The owner/head inst., etc should be on the floor but again, with the exceptions that I mention above.
Please explain to me how this would even be possible. Lets say that he school has 150 students. How could someone who works a 40hr a week job, possibly fit 150 lessons in?
In the ideal world, yes, the un-used portion should be returned. In the real world...sadly, I doubt that happens much.
Likewise, I have enjoyed this discussion with you as well.
Mike
