Martial Arts Certifications

[DuneViking]

WTF, ITF or other certifications recognized by larger authorities imply some greater acheivment. What exactly do they mean? Are they needed? Which ones do you recommend, if any? Does lack of such an endorsement imply some failing? Have these certifying agencies ever changed, come and gone, or evolved? From what to what? Come on all you MA professors with years of experience, travel and training, share your knowledge and hard work, step forward and be recognized and help out the new generation!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear DV:

I know that you are looking for information so this may not be of much help but I pass it along for what it is worth to you.

The paperwork of which you speak is worth nothing---- unless you are communicating with people for whom paper is important. I know. That sounds like double-talk, but work with me for a second.

I am sure you graduated Grammar School, yes? Did you get a piece of paper? How much has that piece of paper meant to your current status? Maybe it made your parents all warm&fuzzy when you got it, but has anyone else been interested? I mean, apart from the actual experience of graduating to go on to HS what did that paper mean?

How about High School? What about College? How about post-collegiate work? Does any of that paper actual "mean" anything? When it comes time to actually perform work or accomplish a task noone really cares about the paper. What they want to know is whether you can do the work. There have been a number of people in the World today (Bill Gates for instance) who actually dropped out of College to make his career. How many people ask Bill Gates for his paper?

And what about the MA paper and its promises? Common license included with having such paper is rank recognition, acceptance into organizational events and the opportunity to connect with like-minded individuals. Lets take a look at these.

a.) If someone is NOT going to recognize your rank, will the paper MAKE them?
b.) Do you know of ANYONE who ever turned up to an event and was turned away because they were NOT a member?
c.) Might a person without paper be able to connect with the people of their choice independent of the paper?

Please let me close by taking a moment to turn the coin over for a minute.

1.) Until the Japanese Occupation the martial traditions of Korea did very well (thank you very much) without the need for paper, rank and associations. The Hapkido Arts existed and were promoted throughout the Choson Dynasty and continue today. I don't see where the rank and paper system has helped at all.

2.) I am still trying to find where the possession of paper as made the Hapkido arts better. We still have people misrepresenting themselves. We still have people committing fraud. We still have people contriving rank and standing.

3.) This practice can be stopped in our generation if people would just choose to quit worrying about the paper and start worrying about the art. Other cultures are moving ahead and refining their arts generation after generation. In Korea, practitioners are more worried about image and how they are perceived, than what they do or are passing on. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Andy Cap]

Great post Master Simms - as usual

 

[DuneViking]

Excellent post G2BH!


That is exactly the type of intelligent dissertation I was hoping would appear. I hold one certification from the Korean Tae Kwon Do Asociation of America because my instructor was under them at the time. The rest are from his organization. I know what I know. His recognition is what is important to me.

Your response does not seem like doubletalk to me, it is the same opinion I have. I know there are of plenty of Microsoft certified professionals who don't know their material, they have forgotten it after the test or just trained to pass the test.

I am curious in the opinions on both sides of the question. Thanks again for your contibution.

 

[TX_BB]

WTF, ITF or other certifications recognized by larger authorities imply some greater acheivment. What exactly do they mean?

That you were able to get a large number of powerful people to submit their power for a higher goal. In this case for the promotion of TKD and sport TKD. That the person with this certification has met the guidlines of this particular organizer. The power and prestige comes about when enough people recongnize a high quality output from the organizations or vice/versa. WTF Black belt certification qualifies the holder for formal the opportunity towards a representing His/her country at the Olympics, World Games...

Are they needed?

Depends on what your going to do. Generally people can defend themselves from an attacker far from Black Belt.

Which ones do you recommend, if any? Does lack of such an endorsement imply some failing?

Depends on what your needs are? The lack of endorsement may reflect on the instructors inability to comply with the oraganizations rules, this can be a plus or a minus. It is the ultimate in instructor autonomy. To see if this is really a big deal for you please read the posts on picking a MA (in the beginers corner) or see http://www.mackido.com/MartialArts/index.html choosing a MA.

 

[Brad Dunne]

How about High School? What about College? How about post-collegiate work? Does any of that paper actual "mean" anything?

Yes it does........ Not to belabor the issue, but employers are looking for the best people they can find. Now does having that piece of paper make you better than another without it? Mabey not in the long term, but it does for being accepted for the position being sought. Some areas of the country, you won't even be considered for a particular position unless you have "some paper".

Now to transpose this to the martial arts. We all realize that there is a proliferation of bogus credentials out there. Since there is really no difinitive high court that oversee's, the best we can do is attempt to align with someone or something we have come to trust. Using the Korean arts as an example, it stands to reason that credentials coming from Korea would have a greater impact than something from Lenny's TKD emporium. That's not to say that Lenny didn't teach good stuff, but when someone is looking for that piece of paper, which one do you think they will lean towards? That piece of paper is the first step in getting people in the door. People today are or seem to be more educated in looking for the credability of the person running the school they wish to attend. Paper gives them the first step in determining said credability.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brad:

Thank you very much. You came to the point quite readily. The position that you stated is EXACTLY the issue raised time and again and EXACTLY the point I was working to make.

The use of paper is only important in terms of people who desire for that paper to be important. Your example of hiring is exactly right. In my case I was actually denied work time and again because my MA degree OVER-qualified me. Will someone please tell me how you can be OVERQUALIFIED to perform a task? In my book you are either qualified or not. Being OVERQUALIFIED suggests that a person can be "too much educated". The fact of the matter is that in my case paper was used not to identify my qualifications as to screen me in or out.

How about the people who gauge a school by how much paper is on the wall. Once again we are talking about image NOT competence. I create an image of myself in the peoples minds so that they will patronize my school. Have anything to do with being competent. Not really as percentages indicate that only 1% (1 out of 100) will actually stick around to make Chodan. On top of that the failure rate for MA schools is about four years. Those citizens will never be around me long enough to find out I don't know anything.

Lastly, lets say that a person has bought himself a 7th or 8th dan certificate by jumping from organization to organization. OK, so it cost him a few bucks but he has it hung tastefully on the wall. And lets say a particularly sharp person figures out in the first year that this turkey knows next to zip about what he is teaching--- at least certainly not 7th or 8th dan worth. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO COMPLAIN TO???? You are getting taught MA so you can't ***** to the BBB. You are getting taught MA so you can't ***** to the organization? If the guy closes down and makes off with the money, then its a different situation, but barring that, what are you gonna do if the quality control behind that paper sucks??

No, I'm sorry, I stand with my original position. Paper in the MA is not worth the ink thats printed on the front of it. The paper is suppose to attest to my relationship with my teacher. I have had that for years and I don't need paper to remind me of how fortunate I am. People who don't care for me (or my teacher) are not going to care about my paper no matter WHAT I do.

Oh--- and the consumers? To bad really but they are going to get what they deserve. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Mithios]

Bruce, You are the man!;-) You posted what i was thinking, and put it to the keyboard much better than i would have. You must have supper mind reading KI ability

Mithios

 

[Miles]

As Bruce pointed out, the certificate itself is just paper.

It is what it represents which is important. If you have a Kukkiwon certificate, it is understood globally to mean that you have mastered a given number of requirements. A certificate from a not-so-well-known organization does not mean you are less-talented, it just may not be understood by as many people. People still may not recognize your ability or level if you can't perform in the dojang, regardless of what the certificate says or who issued it.

Certificates ("suffer tickets" as I've heard them described are also "foot-in-the doors" for other things. As TX BB points out, a Kukkiwon certificate is needed for entry into the Olympics or any WTF-sanctioned tournament (except the US Open). It is also a requirement to participate in the Kukkiwon Instructor Course.

The bottom line is one should train for yourself, not for your paper. If the paper comes, great, if not, you still have skills...

Miles

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Miles and Mithios:

Of course you know this brings up a VERY interesting point, and one in which I am deep in the middle. Consider this for a moment. What does one do when the focus of study is a skill for which there is no rank. I extend this to you for your consideration.

In the Kwan to which I belong there are 6 traditional weapons--- one associated with each dan rank 1-6. In order they are soh bong, dan bong, cane, sword, staff, and knife. OK, so I am 4th dan and have been working on my sword material for a few years being lucky enough to train under a master swordsman right here in Chicago. Just dumb luck for me. But now that I can handle a Ye-do reasonably well, I have also started to study the Ssang Soo Do, the Wol-Do and the Hyup Do. Just learning to wield the Ye-do already exceeded the juk-to or "bamboo sword" work of my Kwan. The rest of this research I am doing along with others of similar interests & is entirely on my own. Think about that for a minute. No paper. No certs. My own teacher could not validate my work even if he wanted to since I have already moved beyond anything he would have required of me. What would have happened had I needed paper? Would I have stopped where HE stopped because there was no paper to be had? When I start with my 5th dan work in about another 5 years or so I will certainly do the staff work but I will also be researching the cudgeol and the spear. Once again there will be no paper. Maybe I should just forget about it, right? I mean, if there is no paper to be had why waste the time, right? :idunno:

I think the point I am working to make is does the pursuit of paper damn our arts to mediocrity because people see no motivation to delve deeper into the material? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Mithios]

I think the point I am working to make is does the pursuit of paper damn our arts to mediocrity because people see no motivation to delve deeper into the material? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce[/QUOTE]

I think it does, alot more than we care to know. I see more and more people who only wan't the wall candy, and don't care if they really learn anything or not, or better yet, won't do it at all if there is no certificate, belt, etc. Of course i also see people with cert's coming out the wazoo, that don't know the material they should, or can't do it worth a crap! or both! But these individuals have the biggest school's etc. Go figure!!

Mithios

 

[zac_duncan]

I think it does, alot more than we care to know. I see more and more people who only wan't the wall candy, and don't care if they really learn anything or not, or better yet, won't do it at all if there is no certificate, belt, etc. Of course i also see people with cert's coming out the wazoo, that don't know the material they should, or can't do it worth a crap! or both! But these individuals have the biggest school's etc. Go figure!!

This might offend some people, if so, I apologize. The internet is a hard place to convey emotion.


This is cert-seeking is something I've seen a lot of... it comes down to a simple truth. There are a lot of people who practice martial arts, but few martial artists. Those people that seek the paper or flaunt the paper often don't care about the art. They care about the image. These are the people who like to be black belts because people who aren't into martial arts are impressed by that. It's an accomplishment to brag about, even if it's meaningless in a martial sense.

I often times wish that the entire concept of rank in MA would simply disappear. Certainly, if you're a student of your art, you can recognize a teacher whern you see them. This would make it difficult for beginners to find instructors, but if you try, I believe you can. I would prefer a world where skill speaks for itself, but unfortunately, the popularity of MA means that charlatans would jump on the openness of a rankless system and scam even more peoplle than they are currently scamming.


It's unfortunate that true skill as a martial artist and a teacher is less of a draw than a peice of paper or an empty dan rank. I suppose on the plus side it does, though, to some extent separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yup, hence the reason many schools "guarantee a black belt in 2-3 years". Lots of people care more about the belt and paper then about actually learning anything.

Appearances mean everything to some people.

Diets do the same, who cares if you're healthy, as long as you are skinny right?

Post secondary education - Same thing, many come in and want to know "What do I need to do to get the certificate" and that is it...

Are certificates important?

Sometimes, eductation ones are because often you can't even get your foot in the door without one. Many employeers won't even consider you if you don't have a high school diploma, or University or whatever.

But a foot in the door is all it is cause without the skills that they want the paper doesn't matter.

But there is a big difference from martial arts to education when it comes to certification, and that is schools are accreddited. Martial Arts organizations are not.

 

[glad2bhere]

"....It's unfortunate that true skill as a martial artist and a teacher is less of a draw than a peice of paper or an empty dan rank. I suppose on the plus side it does, though, to some extent separate the wheat from the chaff....."

Yup, and as I say, the single thing that concerns me the most above everything else is the way the KMA are gradually disappearing. In a way it reminds me of what happened to ju-jutsu in Japan. During the Tokugawa Shogunate the records report carnival-like events where people dressed in garish outfits put on "demo-s" of strongman feats and exotic mental abilities. Later Kano took two or three lines of Ju-jutsu and reorganized it to produce Judo. The Judo went into the Olympics and we lost the ground-fighting, choking and pinning. I see the same thing happening with the KMA. Each generation seems to trim back a little until you can't find some material. Currently I am having a helluva time finding people who still know the original Korean knife material. What a pain. And I'll be damned if I will go attend some Escrima workshop and pass off knifework from another culture as "jen-u-whine Koe-REE-yun" knife material. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[zac_duncan]

Getting a little off-topic here, but I had to address this.

Yup, and as I say, the single thing that concerns me the most above everything else is the way the KMA are gradually disappearing.

Bruce, that is a frustrating and saddening thought. It's really disapointing that more of these great, aging masters aren't out there writing books or making videos... without these things these men will take something vital with them when they die.

I applaud your efforts to learn Korean knife material rather than tacking on another cultures techniques and calling it Korean. But I have this question, if you find someone to teach you these original Korean techniques, will you look attempt to get some form of documentation proving you learned these techniques from the individual you learned them from?

To dovetail with the point of this thread, without some form of certificate how will the world konw that the techniques you learned are actually Korean, in other words how would we know whether your techniques are Korean or the whether the FMA someone else tacked on is? Does that make sense?

Thoughts?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Zac:

And within the context of American thinking you are spot-on. Within the context of generations of Korean practiioners nobody really cared. You either knew it or you didn't. But let me play the Devils Advocate here for just a minute.

Lets say I DO go somewhere and learn some material and pass it off as Korean.

a.) Wouldn't I be smart enough to have some paper printed up and get some fancy doo-dads to make it look impressive?

or

b.) Someone begins to notice that my 'Korean" material looks a heck of a lot like, say, Italian Foil. What are they gonna do? Maybe they raise a big stink and put my name in all the papers and I just keep telling everyone that they are wrong. In time the noise dies down and I keep defrauding people. Happens all the time.

No, from where I sit the important part is not whether or not anyone accepts that what I am doing is legit. People have no more reason to believe me than anyone else. I could just be another fakir for all THEY know. For me, what counts is trying to keep this information alive. I travel all over the Midwest and even to the East Coast--- a lot of times on my own dime--- just to be able to teach and know that people are getting legit material and not some BS someone thought up in their garage. I give away more information on hyung, drills, history and so forth than anything else. The trick is to get the legit information out there and quit trying to make a buck off it every time a person turns around. Otherwise you can just bend-over and kiss all of these traditions good-bye.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

I'll Start a new tread regarding Korean knife.

 

[Miles]

I think the point I am working to make is does the pursuit of paper damn our arts to mediocrity because people see no motivation to delve deeper into the material? Thoughts? Comments?

I think it does, alot more than we care to know. I see more and more people who only wan't the wall candy, and don't care if they really learn anything or not, or better yet, won't do it at all if there is no certificate, belt, etc. Of course i also see people with cert's coming out the wazoo, that don't know the material they should, or can't do it worth a crap! or both! But these individuals have the biggest school's etc. Go figure! Mithios

The "paper" only be should be the by-product, not the goal. But honestly, if someone is so concerned about the "paper", have they really learned the lessons of the art? I think not. It is the same (IMO) with folks who have stripes up and down their belts, multi-colored doboks covered in patches, etc. These extraneous things which scream for out for attention. Clothes/stripes/certificates do not make the martial artist. Let's just get down to basics and train.

Miles

 

[DuneViking]

Thanks for the continuing discussion!!! Great points backed up with logical analysis and discussion!!

Yes, there are pros and cons to paper. It is a tool and can be used by those who have honor as well as by those who do not.

 

[searcher]

Clothes/stripes/certificates do not make the martial artist. Let's just get down to basics and train.

Miles

Very well put Miles.


A few years ago I would have been on the side that paper is good for wiping your butt. That was until I saw that the State of New Jersey now requires that all MA school owners be registered and must show proof of their rank and status. This got me to pondering if the other states would follow N.J. and start requiring registration of rank before allowing a BB to open a school. For this reason and this reason alone I sought out to get all of my ranks recognized and "certified." What this does is allows for anyone questioning my rank or legitimacy to go to the national orgainzation that has certified me and check my credentials. It also gives parents of young students and students themselves piece of mind that they are not learning from an unqualified instructor or from a sexual predator. I am not saying that all organizations are legit nor am I saying that they all have the background checks the same way some have, but if an instructor or student seeks out a reputable organization they will also have piece of mind.

So what I am trying to say is that there are some good things that come from being affiliated with a quality organization.