Martial Arts Accreditation and Governing Bodies

[shifu]

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

I belong to the Martial Arts Industry Association MAIA (http://www.maia.com.au) and the International Martial Arts Alliance IMA (http://www.martialartalliance.com). These organisations both offer accreditation for the martial artist.

Your thoughts?

 

[Infinite]

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

I belong to the Martial Arts Industry Association MAIA (http://www.maia.com.au) and the International Martial Arts Alliance IMA (http://www.martialartalliance.com). These organisations both offer accreditation for the martial artist.

Your thoughts?

I work in Information Security and the need for accreditation is starting to become fairly necesary. How ever as it applies to martial arts I see a great deal of difficulty. The arts are not identical even among two practicitoners and the belt system (for some) doesn't seem to be consistant enough.

In trade skills you can test to see if you are proficient but I doubt you could do so for all the martial artists out there.

I think a body of registraur where they keep a copy of your credentials for people to reference is probably more needed. That way you just check to see if the dojo's references check out and boom you are on your way. A quick reporting of complaints to the registrar may weed out people who shouldn't be teaching.

 

[Phoenix44]

I feel strongly about maintaining skills and standards, but as for accreditation and governing bodies: I'd avoid it like the plague.

Pretty soon you'll have to take (and pay for) accreditation exams designed by people who may not even know your art, and may not even be able to pass the exams themselves! Politics and cronyism will determine who sits on the governing body. You'll get sued based on your accreditation status. That's pretty much the way it is in a lot of licensed professions.

I would strongly suggest that MAs govern themselves--run a clean shop, be honest, have people sign releases, maintain liability insurance. Otherwise, it won't be long before some Congressman starts pushing for regulation.

 

[pstarr]

Once the government gets involved, it'll turn into a nightmare...

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Once the government gets involved, it'll turn into a nightmare...

I don't think he means the US or national government. I think he means governing bodies made up of your peers, like the ITF, WTF, and similar organizations.

In fact, here is a list of governing bodies that will mail you a certificate saying you are whatever rank you want to be as long as you pay the money: http://allshorin.org/id39.html

In theory, governing bodies could be good as long as they are voluntary and honest. Very very very few are honest. Many will just send you the 5th degree black belt certificate if you pay the money.

AoG

 

[Cirdan]

In fact, here is a list of governing bodies that will mail you a certificate saying you are whatever rank you want to be as long as you pay the money: http://allshorin.org/id39.html

Oh dear. :lfao: Some of this stuff is just unbeliveable. Apparently grandmaster is not good enough for these clowns anymore, now it is "Great Soke" and "Reverend Grandmaster". And the pictures, who needs Cartoon Network when we got World Head of Family Sokeship Council?

Governing bodies is generally a bad idea IMHO.

 

[Don Roley]

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

I belong to the Martial Arts Industry Association MAIA (http://www.maia.com.au) and the International Martial Arts Alliance IMA (http://www.martialartalliance.com). These organisations both offer accreditation for the martial artist.

Your thoughts?

A scam. Kind of like Juko Kai and the Rodmeister. You have had experience with getting accredation with them as well, so you know how it goes.

If you can't get accreditation from a teacher, then a bunch of guys who dress in funny outfits and call each other 'master' is not going to come close to filling the need.

It is only people like yourself that really do not have a teacher that would come forward to give their stamp of approval over the training they gave you that need this sort of thing. For the rest of us, these types of boards are not worthy of judging us better than our teacher has.

 

[searcher]

If you want to drive everybody out of public sight and back into "secret" training, then you get the government involved. I am not saying everyone would go and hide, but if we look at history the Chinese, Okinawans, Koreans, and many others have had a government get involved and that is what they did. IMO, we need to keep the governing bodies independant and make no requirements for MAists to be associated with them.

 

[Rook]

There really isn't anything governing bodies can do except mess things up further. They have been a leading cause of the dissolution of the challenge match system in favor of the reputation system where "how good you are" corresponds to your ability to get fancy belts from the local martial arts supply store and print certificates off your computer. They just try to give people an air of legitimacy in exchange for money - and that has caused us quite enough problems already.

 

[Rook]

You might also want to consult this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39971 . It covers alot of the same ground.

 

[someguy]

A martial art consists of to very obvious things. Humor me on this for a moment. It is both martial and an art. Arts are expression of the self. Martial modifies this. It is an art pertaining to combat. I am a firm believer that art should be with out a governing body. No I am far from saying that you should be on your own for learning a martial art. However, having a master is far from a bureaucratic body telling you about expression. It is just as an artist would have a teacher.
Completion requires rules however. And a major competition would require a governing body. So there is a place to have an organization however it shouldn’t really regulate what a martial artist learns.
Of course this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Don Roley]

Completion requires rules however. And a major competition would require a governing body. So there is a place to have an organization however it shouldn’t really regulate what a martial artist learns.

There are orginizations that regulate how competitions between different schools shall be run. That is a good thing and the subject of another thread.

But the main thing with this thread is the fact that if you can't or won't use the accreditation your teacher gave you, then there is nothing a bunch of self- important glory hogs can do for you.

Compared to the rank and status my teacher can give me, these types of groups just do not make the grade. And if someone is going to set themselves up as an independant and break with their teacher, then why bow to a group of people like this?

Even if I were to break out on my own, the rank and experience I had with all my previous teachers does not go away and if you went to them, they will tell you how long I trained and what rank I achieved.

So if someone points to one of these soke- dokey type of boards that recognized them as a soke or anything else and not a teacher that trained them, then I know they have something to hide. I am sure there will be some great excuses given as to why they don't want people to contact their teachers or examine their credentials like, "I really don't want him to be bothered." That excuse is used by a lot of guys I have run across claiming to teach ninjutsu and such that turn out to be frauds. So if they act like frauds and point to someone other than their teachers to contact about how good they are, then it is only natural that we treat them like frauds.

So anyone belonging to or running one of these groups is immediatly suspect. Only guys that point me in ways to contact their teacher to back up their skill level gets my respect.

 

[shifu]

I have a teacher ... a very good one.

This is a discussion about the merits or none of accreditation for martial arts instructors and the bodies that provide same. It is NOT about individual persons and or personalities, rank, title or other such bulldust embroidery

Have any of you visited the links I originally posted to have a look at the type of organisations I was referring to?

Martial Arts Industry Association MAIA (http://www.maia.com.au)

International Martial Arts Alliance IMA (http://www.martialartalliance.com)

The aim of accrediation by these bodies is NOT in certifying one's so-called rank or status in the martial arts but in providing access to accreditation which covers basic requirements for making better instructors. Some of the aspects covered in this form of accreditation includes but is not limited to the role of the coach, planning, teaching skills, group management, communication, physical conditioning, sports safety, nutrition, drugs in sport, sports psychology and development of the athlete. Level Two National Accreditation covers:

• Planning
• Risk Management
• Self-reflection
• Principles of Training
• Endurance Training
• Speed, Strength and Power Training
• Flexibility Training
• Functional Anatomy
• Biomechanics
• Development & Maturation
• Nutrition
• Sports Psychology
• Sports Medicine
• Teaching Methods
• Skill Acquisition
• Communication
• Resource Management
• Drugs in Sport

The Level 2 Coaching Principles course complements the arts specific component provided by a National Organisation.

The aim is raising the level of instructors to a minimum acceptable standard and Not in offering such embroidery as rank and title.

 

[Don Roley]

I have a teacher ... a very good one.

Then you should be able to give us some way of contacting that person to ask them for themselves what they think of you without excuses.

If you can't, then you fall into the same catagory as well known frauds such as Frank Dux and Ashida Kim.

And if your teacher is willing to back you, then no other orginization is needed or even desired.

The only purposese of these types of orgnizations is to serve as a way for people to look good to those that knwo no better. The juko kai recognizes people as Sokes if you pay them to right amount- as you well know. These groups give accreditation for the same reasons.

 

[Robert Lee]

The subject of regulating M/A instruction has been brought to the front before. And some day will probably happen. Is it good or bad. Well Some try to push it for a state permit. Back ground Checks for instructors And such. The M/A was really never supposed to be regulated. But as it grew styles and groups wanted to maintain a certion amount of control, linage to a style and such. M/A has spread the globe now,and more understanding has come about. M/A is for each person it can be structured for learning but has to be performed for a personal aspect. To govern it by a whole stagnates it further. Sets rules and rules We have several organizations now. Who would be the one to decide what style is reconized and what is not. It works ok now and politics grow any way. If You instruct well your students learn and except you. Others reconize your skill. that works. One should have some kind of proof on there back ground But skill shows proof organizations For now is enough,Or to much.

 

[Don Roley]

The subject of regulating M/A instruction has been brought to the front before. And some day will probably happen. Is it good or bad. Well Some try to push it for a state permit. Back ground Checks for instructors And such.

Actually, that is the subject of a different thread. What Sifu is talking about does not involve government regulation or control. What he is talking about is a group that will say if you are qualified enough to teach or not. Another name for such groups are soke boards. You pay them some cash and the recognize you as a soke, or a grandmaster, or another rank.

Some of them do not take money and merely serve as a way for a bunch of guys to make themselves sound more experienced. I make an art and give you a tenth dan in it. You make up an art and give me a tenth dan in it. If anyone asks me what rank I was outside of my own art I can point to the rank you gave me and vice versa.

Of course, if you ask them they will all tell you that they are not like that. But they are.

 

[Don Roley]

It seems I was only half right.

The stuff about accreditation being just another name for soke boards is still valid.

But this seems to be what one of the groups Ron is active in wants to do.

The MAIA has an important and continuing mandate to administer accreditation programs to ensure that martial arts instructors in Australia are able to provide instruction in a manner that is safe, responsible, and accountable with appropriate levels of understanding as to their legal and community obligations.

This mandate is being implemented by:

• the establishment and increasing acceptance of the National Code Of Practice for Martial Arts Centres and Instructors

• the expansion of accreditation programs for both sportive and non-sportive martial arts instructors

• the progressive introduction of an accreditation requirement for any
martial arts instructor who wishes to teach martial arts in any State or Territory of Australia.

• the amendment of Government Regulations and Policy to reflect these accreditation requirements

• direct negotiation with private sector interests that rent/hire facilities in which martial arts are taught to adopt an "Accredited Instructor Only" policy

• the establishment of a 'MAIA' brand/logo that the general public will come to recognise as a guarantee of a minimum standard of accredited instructor

• the establishment and development of significant "social justice" programs within the martial arts industry

• the establishment of a single database that will enable government and the broader community to easily access qualified, reputable instructors throughout Australia

• broad based media/public awareness and education campaigns

Lets look at some of what they want to do.

• the progressive introduction of an accreditation requirement for any
martial arts instructor who wishes to teach martial arts in any State or Territory of Australia.

• the amendment of Government Regulations and Policy to reflect these accreditation requirements

In other words, they want to pressure politicians to accept their word as to who can teach or not. If you do not follow them, then you are out in the cold and can't teach by law if they have their way.

And in the meantime they are doing the following.

• direct negotiation with private sector interests that rent/hire facilities in which martial arts are taught to adopt an "Accredited Instructor Only" policy

In other words, if you don't join you may not be able to rent a place to run your school. I would guess that they could scare the hell out of some property owners with talk of lawsuits and responsibilities they might have if they rent to non- accredited teachers. And I would not be surprised to hear that after being turned down by a teacher that they would then go talking to the group that rents their training hall to them and get their lease revoked.

This is pretty vile in my opinion.

And the thing is, they let people like Ron Gonian in! Do a search on the various boards and ask to talk to the people he says trained him. You will find a lot of things like his paying the juko-kai to recognize him as a soke, his dodging a legal suit against him and other things, but I bet you won't get a way of contacting his teacher from him. Go ahead and do the search with his name here and elswhere to see what I mean.

And if a teacher won't stand up and back their student, what use is a group like this? And if this group lets in people who won't let others even talk to their teachers, what does that say about their standards?

 

[Robert Lee]

Actually, that is the subject of a different thread. What Sifu is talking about does not involve government regulation or control. What he is talking about is a group that will say if you are qualified enough to teach or not. Another name for such groups are soke boards. You pay them some cash and the recognize you as a soke, or a grandmaster, or another rank.

Some of them do not take money and merely serve as a way for a bunch of guys to make themselves sound more experienced. I make an art and give you a tenth dan in it. You make up an art and give me a tenth dan in it. If anyone asks me what rank I was outside of my own art I can point to the rank you gave me and vice versa.

Of course, if you ask them they will all tell you that they are not like that. But they are.

I am aware of different M/A organizations. And there are plenty NOW. Far as Soke board or Soke councils thats fine for those that want to be reconized. As to say who is or is not qualified to teach Groups already do this within there given style or oganization. M/A is about every where now Joining an specific Group to be a qualified M/A instructor Well that would not really be right To many different styles. Heck just Call It Martial Arts No style name because it should be no name if you truely learned , it would be just what you do. and style would be the path of which you learned But not your style. Not to be misunderstood But we are after all different each of us. So as we learn we have our own style. Sure we teach a given set but we do what we do its our way then. Who can control that

 

[shifu]

Whoops sorry, Double post!

 

[shifu]

Don,

Don't you ever get sick of living in the past? I've moved on. You mate seem stuck in the past. As stated I have a very good teacher. Why should I allow you to contact my teacher? I am sorry but I don't know you that well (even if I do know your type). Don, you seem like a reasonable type of person. So why the obsession with the past. I claim NO rank and Title and have got rid of my useless certificates, ranks and other such bull. I challenge you to do the same but then we both know that will never happen! To put it bluntly ... Grow up my friend! Stop living in the past!

The MAIA and IMA is NOT a "Soke" Board or group. It is headed by some of the most respected martial artists in the country (Australia). Thanks for at least taking the time to look over their site. As for the accreditation, well as stated, it has nothing at all to do with rank or title but to do with raising the general standard of the martial arts teacher. If you think they (MAIA and IMA) are "Soke" boads or something similar why not contact the Chairman of each group?The MAIA for example has membership from the Aust Karate Federation, the Australian Kung Fu (Wu Shu) Federation Inc, Judo and Taekwondo Federations etc, each governing or national bodies in their own rights.

The IMA has 700 schools and associations, equating to over 54,000 members in Australia alone as of April 2006. Some "Soke" Board Hey!

MAIA Policies


The policies of the Martial Arts Industry Association are designed to ensure a high level of professionalism within the martial arts industry in Australia and to ensure that martial arts organisations and their instructors are able to operate with current acceptable community and legal standards..

1. Definition
1.1

For the purpose of the following policies, Martial arts will include, any system of fighting or self-defence, historical, contemporary or sportive whether performed in combative terms with other practitioners or in isolation, in competitive or non-competitive expressions utilising empty hand techniques or weapons (excluding firearms). In short, martial art is any combative related activity involving empty hands or weapons that is performed in sportive or non-sportive expressions.

2. Membership
2.1 Membership of the MAIA is open to any bona fide martial arts related organisation, school, Academy, retailer, promoter, or media organisation based in Australia; including Australian representatives based in Australia of international martial arts organisations. For criteria applicable to each category of membership, refer the Members page of our web site.

3. Instructor accreditation
3.1

Martial arts instructor accreditation is available to all bona fide martial arts instructors
3.2 Martial Arts instructors must hold one or more of the recognized martial arts instructor accreditations as listed on the Instructor Accreditation page of our web site.
3.3 Membership of the MAIA shall not be a requirement to access our accreditation courses.

4. Codes of Practice
4.1.1 Members of the MAIA and accredited instructors shall comply with the National Code of Practice for Martial Arts Centres And Martial Arts Instructors. In addition, members in the categories of Martial Arts Event Promoters and Martial Arts Retail Outlets/Importers must comply with their respective codes, namely: the Code of Practice for Martial Art Event Promoters and Tournament Organisers; or the Code of Practice for Martial Arts Retailers.
4.1.2 All codes of practice are available for download from the Publications and Forms page of our web site.

5. Prohibited Weapons
5.1 The MAIA supports the position of the Australian Police Ministers' Council calling for uniform National Prohibited Weapons Legislations.
5.2 The MAIA position is that the interests of the general community, government and the martial arts industry are best served by either a ‘prohibited weapons permit' system (as already implemented in the ACT, Victoria and NSW), said permits to only be issued to ‘accredited martial arts instructors' or where ‘prohibited' or ‘controlled' weapons are able to be possessed by Martial arts practitioners, tin this case a martial arts practitioner will be defined, by regulation, as someone who is an accredited martial arts practitioner.

6. Harassment & Discrimination
6.1 The MAIA fully endorses the policies contained within the Harassment-Free Sport Strategy developed by the Australian Sports Commission. See http://www.activeaustralia.org/hfs/

7. Children in Martial Arts
7.1 The MAIA Policy on Child Safety is available from the Publications and Forms page our web site http//www.maia.com.au

8. Infectious Disease
8.1 The MAIA endorses the Sports Medicine Australia “Infectious Disease Policy” and “Blood Rules OK” document. See http://www.sma.org.au/smapolicies.htm

9. Pregnancy
9.1 The MAIA endorses the Australian Sports Commission policy document entitled Pregnancy in Sport © 2002. See http://www.ausport.gov.au/asc/corpdocs/pregnancy.htm

10. Insurance
10.1 Martial Arts instructors must be covered by appropriate levels of Public Liability and Professional Indemnity insurance.

11. Use of MAIA logo and company name
11.1 The MAIA logo and company name may only be used by a member in the following advertising/promotions/correspondence contexts:

11.2 to state that the member is a member of the organisation eg: John Smith's martial arts school is a member of the MAIA
11.3

to state that a particular member is accredited by the MAIA eg: John Smith Accredited Instructor MAIA
11.4 the MAIA logo and name may be used on club/academy/school letterheads provided that its size and prominence is smaller than the name of the club/academy school appearing on the letterhead and the words “member MAIA” or “member Martial Arts Industry Association Inc. ARBN 110 253 300” and no others are used.
11.5 Any other use of the MAIA logo or company name, without the written permission of the Executive, is not permitted.
11.6

No member may issue a press release on behalf of the MAIA without the written approval of the Executive.
11.7 No member may claim or advertise that they occupy an administrative position within the MAIA unless the Executive has ratified that position, in writing.
11.8 No personal/history backgrounds of individual martial arts instructors will be included in any MAIA press release unless authorised by the MAIA Executive in writing.

12. Venue Hirers – Accredited instructors only policy
12.1 The progressive introduction of an accreditation requirement for any Martial arts instructor who wishes to hire a venue/ hall/ facility for the purposes of providing martial arts instruction. It is the intention of the MAIA that this policy be implemented over a 5 Year period and will include, but not be limited to, all church, council, Community and school halls as well as PCYC's, YMCA's etc. This will be accomplished on a State by State basis via:


• Broad based media / public awareness and education campaigns highlighting the ‘Code of Conduct' and the need for general consumers to only use ‘accredited instructors'

• The alignment of all hall and venue providers to an ‘accredited martial arts instructors only' policy

• The assistance of the appropriate government departments and agencies in promoting, supporting and facilitating the ‘accredited martial arts instructors only' program

Are you telling me that having a Child Protection policy, a National (accepted) Code of Conduct, Accreditation Services, Prohibited Weapons policy etc are the hallmarks of some type of "Soke" board? Sorry but I really dont think you have done your homework on this subject.

Don, I wish you all the best for the future and hope that perhaps in the future we can communicate without all the uneccessary mud-slinging and negativity. I wish you and your family all the very best for the festive season. Stay well.