Martial Art vs. Sport (again)

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by puunui, Apr 20, 2012.

  1. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    I mean the perfecting of technique in all aspects of TKD, from stances to transistions............etc. What else is there after all? I do not go out and fight, I have not had anyone acost me since the 70's but I still love doing TKD and HKD. Self inspection as you are trying to perfect technique can be enlightning in many ways.
     
  2. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    He would be called a sharpshooter? Yes I can agree with your scenario about not using your martial art to fight, that is not why I train nor probably anyone in any "do" style art. We are training in the long run for perfecting what we do, 20years and more in some martial art with no need to defend yourself leads one to realize training is not only about fighting.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    It sounds like you're in the camp that TKD has no real self defense or fighting emphasis, which echoes what StudentCarl said. And if that's the case, I can kind of see your point. The inconsistency starts to appear when you assert that your goal is self defense or learning to fight. If you never defend yourself or fight, you are learning to do neither in the same way that a sharpshooter isn't learning to hunt.
     
  4. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    That is what the sport side or sparring is about, seeing if you can stay in the ring with others is as close to fighting or self defense as most are going to get. A lot of good it is to hunt if you can't hit the side of a barn. What about you do you learn to fight or defend yourself or is it fantasy training. Do yougo to classes to learn how to fight,really? I think if one wants to learn to fight they should get out there and fight.Practical expierence is better than the gym,dojo,dojang.
     
  5. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I used to, but for a variety of reasons, no longer do.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I don't go to class to learn to fight or to learn self defense, and I never allege to. As I said before, the inconsistency begins when people say they're learning to do something that they never actually do, or even further, have no intention of ever actually doing.

    And in the context of this thread, I'm highlighting that it's all artificial to a degree. Whether it's sparring, sport, kata or choreographed two steps, if the goal is "learning to fight" or "self defense," but you aren't fighting or defending yourself, you're operating in a blind spot.
     
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  7. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    Yeah, I see your point but if you are learning to kick and punch, correctly, so as to have more power, or just be better at punching and kicking then what is that if not learning defensive or offensive skills? I would guess that the difference in learning to do a sport is that the sport( specific skill set) is what you get. In a martial art you are learning fighting skills but are actually looking and getting more than a specific skill set. I am not argueing here but seeing if I can flesh out the question.
    Oh, if you go hunting but don't bag any game are you a hunter?
     
  8. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    I mean, that I could read perfecting Technique as being perfecting Your Stances, or perfecting how to USE Your Stances.
    Im unsure of which way You meant, and would only take issue to the first one.
     
  9. GlassJaw

    GlassJaw Orange Belt

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    Steve wrote:
    And I replied:
    I thought some more after I wrote that. You raise a good point. My analogy of TKD to hunting is indeed flawed. There are specific activities that can be described as actually hunting, but training activities are generally not among them. Whereas in TKD, most of our activities that I would consider to be actually doing TKD are part of training. But training for what? Advancement? Learning? Competition? These are all parts of TKD (even if I don't consider them all to be essential parts).

    I'm at a loss for the answer.

    Yoda Sensei says "Tae Kwon Do or Tae Kwon Do not; there is no try."
     
  10. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    People in the army train to fight for a living but may never actually go to war. But, if war breaks out and they are sent to fight they know what to do, they can use the weapons, drive the tanks, etc etc. Is this any different to a martial artist training to fight?
     
  11. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    Mmmm....training is extremely realistic in the military. SOCEUR may refer to Jackal Stone as "partnership building exercises" -- exercise, be damned. Its a controlled fight, with live fire, nations that are technically allies but don't always trust one another.....and one helluva rough day at the office if things go wrong. A US Navy UDT-SEAL museum recently opened up in Florida, this was said about the memorial at the museum:
     
  12. StudentCarl

    StudentCarl 3rd Black Belt

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    I've always preferred deer hunting with a bow to hunting with a firearm. We call it hunting, not 'killing', because the enjoyment (at least for me) is the hunt. I think the parallel to Taekwondo is direct: I enjoy the training. If you take fighting or self-defense to its end, it's about winning and surviving respectively. So then the questions are obvious: If you go hunting and don't kill something, did you find satisfaction? What do you seek when you hunt? If you train in Taekwondo but do not have a victory over someone or get attacked, did you not find satisfaction? What do you seek when you train?

    I think (Grand) Master Po would say "Before you step, Grasshopper, it is wise to know what you seek."
     
  13. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    Then all martial arts are sport unless you get into a fight?
     
  14. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    Good point.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Not necessarily. I'd say that the sporting arts tend to be more self aware. Some martial arts are mostly just good exercise. Some are potentially a foundation for learning self defense... Kind of like a shooting range is potentially a foundation for learning to hunt.


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  16. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    Would you agree that within certain arts there are avenues to train it different ways. Tkd seems a classic example of this. It can be trained totally for sport, just for exercise or totally for self defence/fighting (such as the police officers I train with).
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Of course. And, as I've said, if you are defending yourself regularly, as a LEO might, you would IMO be developing g self defense skills. However, it's possible... Even likely.... That the LEO trains alongside people who aren't, even though they train in the same school at the same time. The distinction isnt just with the curriculum. It's also a lot to do with the student.


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  18. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    I agree. I remember asking my original instructor why he didnt mind that certain students spent a lot of class standing around talking. He told me that some people come here just to get out of the house, socialise, and have a hobby. Others (like a pro rugby league player in our class) are there only for fitness and flexibilty, and others (like the leos) were there with the sole intention of learning to fight/self defence etc. He told me that his job was to cater for all of them and make sure they all benefit in their own ways from what he taught. He said the challenge was to teach the same curriculum to all, but in a way that each could achieve their goals. Its like the guy I started training with, he was way over weight and his only goal was weight loss. When we got sent down the back to work on the kick bags I would take my time, working on technique and really watching what I was doing, whereas my mate would lay into the bag like there was no tomorrow, because his only goal was elevating heart rate and getting a sweat up to lose weight. We were both able to achieve our own goals under the one roof. My instructor's goal was to go home after each class knowing that each individual student was achieving what "they" wanted to achieve out of taking tkd.
     
  19. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    I am not on board with this, the leo is learning self defense but until they use it they are just getting excersise? The ones shooting targets are in a void unless they kill something? I think what is happening here is that MA's are about anything you decide they are, self defense for just in case, self awareness if you are aware of that aspect...............so on.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Can you think of another activity where you learn skills you never expect to apply?

    My point is that if you are shooting targets, you aren't learning to hunt. And if you have no intention or expectation of ever hunting, you aren't a hunter. Of course, target shooting is great fun, and if you enjoy it, great. But calling yourself a hunter is an indication you aren't self aware.

    Same for martial arts. You're not learning self defense any more than any other person, if you will likely never apply what you're learning. It might be great fun and good exercise p, but you if you don't golf, you aren't a golfer. If you don't hunt, you aren't a hunter.

    When I say self aware, I'm not talking about learning that in a class. I'm talking about being honest with yourself and not operating under delusion.


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