Martial Art vs. Sport (again)

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by puunui, Apr 20, 2012.

  1. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,578
    Likes Received:
    271
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Metro ATL
    Depends. I'm not really up on Yang except for the generalized history about after Yang Lu Chan left Chen Village & went to Beijing. He watered down what he learned in Chen Village to prevent the Qing's, who were paying him at that point for martial arts, martial arts. There are lineages of Yang that while maintaining the less overtly martial appearance of Chen, are just as mean & ugly as Chen when hands are touched. Those lineages tend to be found from adherents of the Yang family directly, not so much students of students. I could be very off on this due to my non-Yang background & lack of Yang research.

    Yang however is also the most prevelant to have people practicing "Tai cheeeeeeeeeeeez" as opposed taiji quan, that is to say no martial content at all while trying to hug the universe.
     
  2. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    4,378
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Not going to hold you to it, but do you know if there is a branch of yang taiji in manchuria, especially close to the north korea border?
     
  3. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    Terry, the way we explain it to students is that the sport of tkd has gained much popularity particularly since becoming an olympic sport. We explain that it is a great sport to get into and there are many competitions around the place and many avenues to compete. We also advise that if this is the avenue they, or their kids, want to go down that they are best finding a club who focuses on this form of sparring and understand the 'game' of sparring, For example, how points are scored, how many points are required to win a match, the rules, which techniques have the most success, the best way to counter such moves etc . We also tell them that certain safety gear is worn in these matches and that anyone wanting to compete should find a club that encourages wearing this sort of gear so they can get used to wearing it while sparring. We also let them know that clubs specialising in this form of competition will have instructors/coaches who understand how the game is played and provide a platform for a student to improve their knowledge of the sport and their chances of success. We tell them that the non sport schools tend not to focus on that form of sparring so much, may wear different padding or no padding at all when sparring, generally their students dont compete as they are not well versed in the sport of tkd and often spar under different rulesets and that the instructors are usually not qualified to really be teaching the ins and outs of olympic sparring as they usually have not competed themself, or may not even know the rules. we go into all the self defense side of things as well. There is more to it but thats the basis of what we say. If people see competition as an avenue they may wish to go down we are more than happy to pass on some numbers of local sports clubs.
     
  4. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Longboat Key over looking Sarasota Bay, at least u
    Sport Taekwondo is martial arts.
     
  5. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Australia
    Im really not in the mood to debate exact definitions, semantics, and specification.
    Mostly because it can only cascade downwards. Im not referring to You, of course. Im referring to the cascade of people whod inevitably dive on the whole concept of the discussion.
     
  6. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Australia
    Yes, it is.
     
  7. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    you are correct, I dont think anyone has disputed that. Sport and non sport martial arts are still both martial arts. One is just geared more towards the sport aspect. But like you, I just cant be bothered debating semantics, so we may just have to all agree to disagree on this one. It could be discussed forever, and probably will be :).
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2012
  8. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Longboat Key over looking Sarasota Bay, at least u
    For those interested. A recommendation for children who shy away from competitive sports to instead try non-competitive sports. They have listed Karate, but any martial art can apply as both a competitive sport, like sparring, and a non-competitive sport, like makiwara practice.

    "
    If your tween backs down from competition, organized team sports, or just needs a temporary break from competition, consider introducing him to a non-competitive alternative. If you're worried that your son or daughter won't take away as much from a non-competitive sport as from football, basketball, or baseball, take a breath. Experts say as long as your child has your full support and interest, he'll come out a winner. In addition, non-competitive sports do offer competition, in some form.Rather than competing against a team or another player, your tween is really in competition with himself, to improve his score, his time, or improve his abilities. For example, the sport of kayaking emphasizes not speed, but stroking, following safety guidelines, and enjoying the outdoors.There's another advantage to non-competitive sports, say child advocates. They often eliminate the ugliness that takes place on the playing field. Who hasn't heard the story about the ill tempered coach, or the foul-mouthed parent who loses it in front of everybody? Also, non-competitive sports or activities give your tween the luxury of learning or improving his skill in his own time.Parents can find non-competitive sporting options in a number of places. The first place to call is your local department of parks and recreation, followed by area YMCAs, YWCAs, and after school clubs or groups.
    [h=3]Non-Competitive Sports to Consider[/h]
    • Canoeing

    • Kayaking

    • Archery

    • Aerobics

    • Recreational Dance

    • Hiking

    • Backpacking

    • Fishing

    • Surfing

    • Walking

    • Skateboarding

    • Cycling

    • Billiards

    • Karate
     
  9. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    Ralph, I don't know if you have said this in earlier threads. Does your taekwondo system have any sort of competition in sparring or forms, even at the inter-club level?
     
  10. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    For those who wish to test their skills against others we do have a comp once or twice a year. Its a pretty good event actually, I think it is especially good for kids as they often feel the urge to compete, and even some of the older guys like to re live their younger days. Only a very small percentage of student are interested in competing but we still usually end up with 500-600 students, most want to compete in the self defence section or timber breaking. Students wishing to compete practice for it in their own time, no class time is put aside for preparation and certain instructors encourage competing more than others. My instructor hates it, but is more than happy for his students to enter if they wish. Our GM doesnt like the idea and doesnt attend, it is run by a group of 7th dans.
     
  11. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    From your experience Mastercole, what percentage of kids coming through your door end up competing at any level? Do you find kids like to compete more than adults, or the other way around?
     
  12. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    We're the same. I've explained the difference many times to a prospective student. I think that is the honest thing to do for a student, so that they know precisely what the training will involve and what the goals are going to be upfront. I can't remember anyone ever coming to me looking for sport training. I attribute that to the way I've set up my website as well as word-of-mouth advertising. I don't market one way of training over the other, or market one as all-inclusive. I think it is dishonest to do so from a professional point of view. If I did have someone come to me that wanted sport-oriented training I'd point them to another school. Though we've had many TKD schools close in the last few years (and one TSD), there are still some around the area that would serve them well. When asked what the difference is, I simply explain the teaching methodology of each as well as the overall goals/focus of the programs. Again, that isn't putting one above another, that is explaining what the differences are and allowing the student to choose what is best for them. In this way, it doesn't have to be an 'X' vs. 'Y' kinda thing.

    Fortunately, due to the net, as well as personal interactions among people, the differences are becoming better known. This helps to prevent one methodology program from claiming it covers both. This is of benefit to the student as ultimately, they should receive the product they desire and are paying for.
     
  13. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Wether you choose to compete is up to the individual. If you want to compete your training should on that. If not focus on some other part of the Martial Arts.

    It is personal preference! One is not more valid than the other. If you want to train old school rather than new school (whatever that means) perfectly fine.

    We should be able to have debates on this board with out people getting hurt feelings and threads being locked.

    This is not a critic of the Mods but if how this group acts. Get a thicker skin.

    Allot of people have attacked Master Cole and Puunui recently for things that they ultimately do themselves. Can we have lively discussions without all the tattling!!!!
     
  14. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Australia
    The tattling is mostly how they word some of their views :)
    Personally, I just watch the debates and giggle.
     
  15. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    I think the point needs to be made (again), that it isn't an 'us vs. them' kinda thing. At least not on the part of 'us'. I don't see it as something to really debate. SD training isn't a viable vehicle for a sports-oriented competitor. Conversely, sports-oriented training isn't the best vehicle for SD. That isn't putting one higher than the other. It isn't putting one down in favor of the other. They are different training vehicles, with different methodologies for different destinations.

    As far as TKD competitions, KKW TKD is the bomb. It has a well organized structure in place and lots of opportunity for the sports practitioner. From a SD perspective, it isn't the best option. That is my professional opinion and not to be taken as a jab at KKW TKD. A jeep is great for off-road, but not very handy competing in the Indie 500. The methodology is great for one venue and insufficent for another. That isn't ego or agenda. Just stating what should be fairly obvious.

    The goal is to simply have an open, honest and unemotional discussion on the merits of each in-and-of-themselves and how and why they differ. Then no one gets flamed or insulted or offended. People can then look forward to viewing the thread. Then we can all hold hands and sing songs afterwards :ultracool

    BTW, Ralph your PM box is full.
     
  16. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    Very interesting. What you are describing sounds like what happens in a lot of Kukkiwon taekwondo circles around the world.
     
  17. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    I will have to empty that pm box. Your above post is spot on, sums it up nicely.
     
  18. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    I cant recall anywhere where puuini or mastercole have been 'attacked'. People disagree with them regularly but from what Ive seen its always in a polite, respectful manner.
     
  19. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    To me, 'sport' has meant competition with another entity, under a ruleset.

    To use a logical construct:

    If {sport} ===> then {competition under ruleset}

    The contrapositive:

    If not {competition under ruleset} ====> then not {sport}

    There are a lot of physical activities...including my favorite (hiking) that are not sport per se. They might be considered athletics, recreation, training, aerobic, anaerobic, healthy, fun, awesome and other forms of physically active goodnesss....but they aren't necessarily a sport, at least to me.
     
  20. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    australia
    Thats pretty much how I see it aswell. Technically, a guy standing there boucing a tennis ball is 'sport' if you want to get technical, but I wouldnt consider it sport. If two people are bouncing a tennis ball in a form of competition it then becomes sport, becaue then when they train they have tht ruleset in mind and start to train in such a way that it will adhere to the ruleset they use. Just like a cricketer doesnt spend hours on end practicing to bat against underarm bowling, because they know they will never have to face that in a real game. If Im an elite sports martial artist training regularly to become the best and in my ruleset you cant punch to the face (for instance), then I wont waste my time spending hour upon hour working on defence against a head punch because it just cant happen. So what starts out as "anything physical is sport", can veer off once people start actually adapting their training to a sport/ruleset. As I said in an earlier post, when I asked a mate of mine who is a sports tkdist why they dont work on punching very much, he replied "because punches dont score". He has clearly adapted his martial arts training to suit the ruleset he spars under.123
     

Share This Page