Many feel that AK has many "holes" or un-addressed situations within....

[rmcrobertson]

I'm curious. Do any of you guys ever go nag judo, jiu-jitu, etc., with all the holes in their techniques, in their system?

Nor do I understand why you'd keep the Ram techniques, given their uselessness. But I'm pretty sure the folks who got on my case about doing them knew what they were talking about.

One last point: the moves do not have to be in the techniques, in the sense of being articulated in the defender's moves, to be, "in the system." Look at the attacks.

At yellow:
Del. Sword teaches dummies a right hand grab
Capt. Twigs teaches a rear bear hug
Grasp of Death teaches a right head-lock
Mace of Aggression teaches a front two-hand grab
...and I'm sure others can extend this list at least as well as I can.

Or look at the grappling/takedowns built into the techniques. Isn't there a takedown in Dance of Death? A response to being bent over forwards by an opponent who's trying the ol' suplex in Locking Horns? And on and on and on? Up through, say, Falling Falcon, the extensions to Evading the Storm, Circling Wing, Crashing Wings, Locked Wing, and on and on and on? Hell, half the extensions must deal with a grounded opponent...

Yes, for the 95th time. I personally could spend more time doing this stuff, as I've been writing for the past six months. Among other things, y'all are quite right to point out that there's an important question of one's comfort zone--if never on back, never learn to be relaxed down there.

Oh well.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Don't have to nag BJJers about deficiencies in their system...they readily admit them and many cross-train in boxing, kick-boxing, wrestling, and Judo.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I'm curious. Do any of you guys ever go nag judo, jiu-jitu, etc., with all the holes in their techniques, in their system?

Like OFK said, many of them are already doing it.
.

Or look at the grappling/takedowns built into the techniques. Isn't there a takedown in Dance of Death? A response to being bent over forwards by an opponent who's trying the ol' suplex in Locking Horns? And on and on and on? Up through, say, Falling Falcon, the extensions to Evading the Storm, Circling Wing, Crashing Wings, Locked Wing, and on and on and on? Hell, half the extensions must deal with a grounded opponent...

Yes, there is a take down in DofD. That is not the issue. The front headlock in Locking Horns is your standing grappling, which I believe we have all agreed is in there. We are addressing you being down with the person. In DofD, you're not on the ground with him, instead, you're doing your tech. and extension upright.

Mike

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
I don't think it's the only stance in which you are in a state of balance. You could move from a cat or natural position. These two positions having more to do with your weight distribution and foot location as opposed to whether your heel is up or not, but this is splitting hairs. I will concede to this, odds are that I may not be doing this right. I never claimed to be a kenpo master, but I don't think "mastership" is a requisite of common-sense. When your feet are crossed in a twist stance or crossover, despite how balanced you feel, it is possible for your opponent to lunge forward and knock you over. While some may argue that this is possible regardless of the stance, I say, "why should we help the situation by binding our legs and limiting our mobility.

First, let me say thank you for not taking offense to my post. I think allot of people would have. It says allot for your character.

Second, What I mean by the neutral bow being the only stance in which you are in a state of balance is that it is not a transitional stance, though it can be. It is a stance that we transition in and out of. In sense it is the begining and ending of all of our transitions. All of the other stances only have balance if you stop in them. When performing a technique we transition through them with out stopping. If you do not stop, you are not in balance. You are engaged. If you are engaged you are employing one of the three power principles. You can not be in a state of balance and employ the power principles. I know allot of people view balance as, if you are not falling down then you are in balance. This is not necessarily true. When we walk we are really doing several controlled falls in a row while keeping our mass moving forward. We are not in a state of balance when we are walking but we are not falling down either.

Third, you should not be crossed up at all on either the crossover or the twist stance. The twist stance has about the same depth as the neutral bow. A common mistake that I see is that people tend to pull their front foot back and slide their front heel over their centerline. They end up with their back knee pressed against the back of their front knee. Basically they are walking a tight rope. So, of coarse there is no stability in the stance. When done properly, their should be a good ten to twelve inches between your knees. A way to practice this is to stand in a good neutral bow with toe-heel alignment. This sets your width. To check your depth, simply drop your back knee to the ground. It should touch the ground at about the same line as your front heel. Now stand back up and rotate on the ball of your front foot. Your foot should go from your toes pointing to 1:30 to pointing to 10:30. Allow your back heel to come off the ground and your knee to point directly forward. Basically you are reversing your toe-heel alignment. You are going from front toe back heel to front heel back toe alignment. To check if you maintained the proper depth and width of the twist stance simply drop your back knee to the ground again. Your knee should still be on the same line as your heel however your heel should be right next to your knee now. My neutral bow is about 22 inches wide and my twist is about 15 inches wide. My neutral bow is about 31 inches deep while my twist is actually about 32 inches deep. I am about six feet tall. Not that these would be the same demensions for everybody my size but I would expect them to be somewhat comparable. Everybody is built a little different.

That's right, while you are generating power through your stance you are also binding your legs with each other. You are now committed to forward movement, twisting out, or if you want you can move backwards against all that force that you just created. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I don't claim to know everything about kenpo, I just have several little things that I've been working on for a while that kinda bug me. This crossover thing is one of them.

I am going to have to say, respectfully, that I feel that you are wrong in this case. If done the way I described above the twist stance is not binding at all and it energizes your power rather than hinder hit. The crossover forward or backward for that matter utilizes the twist stance as well. From say a left neutral bow step forward with your right foot into a right twist stance (as I have described it above) then continue your stepthrough with your left foot into a left neutral bow again. Lots of inertial engagement or back-up mass can be generated from this foot meneuver.

Let me ask you this, would you ever do a crossover stance during one of the ram techniques? Why or why not? I sure as heck wouldn't, I don't have enough mass to play that game, especially when the guys I'm working out with are all 6' - 6'5" and 200-260 lbs. [/B]

Sure I would. If the situation warranted it. If for some reason my attacker ended up away from me and I wanted to close the distance between us then a cross over is a viable foot meneuver to do this. But that goes for any technique not just the ram techniques. I am 6 foot 250 pounder and I have been hit by guys that are practicaly half my size using these foot meneuvers and stances and believe me they had no problem moving my mass.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Originally posted by Doc
I disagree and find significant balance in all stances. Yes even the cat stance.

Please read my post which responds to kenpo yahoo. I desribe what I meant in a little more detail. I am curious if you agree or not.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Fellow Kenpoist:

When we discuss "holes" in Kenpo, and specifically in the so called "ground game", I get a little weirded out. I could easily answer charge for charge and word for word what techniques I use or teach on the ground. For example a version of Delayed Sword where the left hand creates a hook in the right arm, the inward handsword is an eye thrust or pressure point above the mandibular, the kick (after the left leg hooks their right, creating and anchor) is a "bump" to roll them so I am in the mount.

-Michael

Oh, its all delayed sword, baby.:asian:

 

[dcence]

Nor do I understand why you'd keep the Ram techniques, given their uselessness. But I'm pretty sure the folks who got on my case about doing them knew what they were talking about.

If you are talking to me, I didn't see anyone say they were useless. I certainly didn't. They are useful for the attack against which they were designed - a tackle, but not a single or double leg takedown which is a different animal.

To all in general:

My posts are meant in the most constructive way. It is to help others see this from a grappler's point of view and LEARN from it. I am not about tearing down Kenpo, but building it up.

I am less about what to do on the ground than I am in learning how to stay off the ground, what NOT to do if I end up on the ground and how to get off it ASAP. Those are valuable skills. If you work those skills great, if not I believe you should. But anyone is free to disagree.

 

[Shiatsu]

Dcence I completely see where you were coming from. I don't think you were tearing anything down. I enjoyed your insite. Where in Idaho are you?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Hey, I second Mr. Ence's post. While I'm probably a little more brash and not quite as well spoken I mainly just want to learn about what's out there. I don't exactly agree with a lot of what is being said just like most of you probably think I'm an idiot, but that's the way it goes.

Kenpo2dabone:
Thank you for your explanation. That is not how I was taught to do the crossovers or the twists. I will play with the stance again and see how it works.

Mr. Billings:
Thank you for taking the time to explain the technique. What you are describing sounds a lot like a scissor sweep, although I don't HOOK with my left leg. This is a good maneuver to teach your students, one which essentially needs to be done as fast as possible since the attacker just has to realize that you are trying to sweep him and widen their base a couple of inches. The scissor sweep is a good one to know, but is easy to counter. This is why I think a good curriculum would have at least three different manuevers that can be used interchangeably from a couple of key postitions. Notice I didn't say techniques. You could have 1 technique for the guard, 1 technique for the mount, 1 technique for the half guard, and 1 technique for the cross face and teach 3 variations of each based on your opponents reaction.

I wanted to point out that a couple of weeks ago I watched a Machado Blue Belt Teach a dozen or so kenpo guys how to do this the scissor sweep. Each of these guys has been doing delayed sword for at least five years and they all had problems executing this sweep at first. This alone leads me to believe that the sequence you suggest isn't one that would be easily extrapolated from delayed sword if one had never worked the sweep before.

This is why I think it would be good to list the EPAK techniques that people teach for ground situations. I'm willing to bet that most have never been taught the ground uses of these techniques.

 

[Doc]

Aimed at no one in particular, but I think there is a tendancy for many to confuse techniques used in a competition venue with "street attacks" and assaults.

On the street a person might be inclined to execute a tackling type attack. However I have had my share of encounters and witnessed and investigated many more all over the U.S. and even outside the country in some pretty dangerous neighborhoods and areas. I have NEVER seen, heard, or investigated anyone attempting to execute a "competition" technique in the street in thirty years..

My point is a simple one. As an example, "shooting for the legs" is a technique that is executed within a rule structure in a competition that limits the physical penalty for being unsuccessful. Worse case scenario, you lose the contest. Changing the venue to one that suggests that if you are unsuccessful you may die, or at the least sustain serious physical injury removes such assaults from most physical vocabularies.

Such grappling assaults are unrealistic on the streets of any "hood" in the world. The price you pay is just too severe if you are unsuccessful. Besides that is a specialized skill specifically for those who compete, not for "real" street fighters whose purpose is to intimidate, assault, jack, rape, kidnap, kill, or rob you. The F.B. I. nationwide statistics support this.

That doesn't mean I shouldn't consider such things in a self-defense curriculum, but assaults must be categorized in order of probability. In my own experience, as well as the experiences of all of my colleagues (that includes Mr. Parker), someone attacking you on the street by "shooting" at your ankles is not a likely scenario.

A bear hug is more likely than a tackle, which is more likely than an ankle shoot. Statistically, your most common empty hand physical assault is a right punch because most people are right handed. That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider initiated left punches or follow ups, but this obsession with the idea that everyone who assaults us is a supreme ninja shoot fighting grappling double knife wielding stick master is keeping many from examining why there basic techniques don't work. We're worried about "ankle tackles" when we can't stop that right cross, or more appropriately, the bear hug.

How many initiated back fists would you throw if you knew a person might gouge your eyes out if you missed? In competition you'll try anything because the worse that happens is you lose the contest. On the street is a different story. Your life is on the line and that changes your options significantly.

Some may dismiss what I have to say, but my "urban street creds" and experience are pretty solid. I have and still do take my life in hand everytime I hit the bricks. Much more than most who have different professions. I seek out those who would rather kill me than be subjected to incarcration, so I know "killers" and fighters. But to be honest, I don't know what happens in areas of the country where there isn't any asphault or concrete, but the F.B.I. stats seem to suggest there is no difference.

Fix the Kenpo you have, and worry about fighting "Wolverine" later, - or not.

Dr. Robertson is right.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Ceicei, 1st off, sorry for not answering sooner. I will try to be more timely in the future!

Originally posted by Ceicei
So, am I to understand that from white to black is just the bare minimum, ie. only 10% of the available knowledge?
- Ceicei

No, I never quoted any percentages. If I were it would be somewhat higher, but, I view our base system is like the alphabet which has 26 letters to form its base, out of those 26 letters comes millions of words, out of our Base system comes unlimited expansions.

Originally posted by Ceicei
How much more then is really there to learn beyond first black (what I'm asking here isn't on how many techniques, but rather on specific principles and concepts not taught to lower belts)?
- Ceicei

I don't know exactly what your curriculum consists of or how it was taught to you, so it makes it difficult to answer you with a cut and dry answer. I can tell you this, If you ask any upper rank individual they will tell you there is plenty to not only learn, but know better and understand thoroughly, even if you have been taught a good base!

Originally posted by Ceicei
It was my impression the white-black cover all the basic principles/concepts and then proceed on beyond to teach/create more techniques based on these concepts? Am I off base with that impression? :idunno:
- Ceicei

In most circumstances I agree, you learn "most" of the P/C/T but, there could be a few that slipped past for any number or reasons.

Originally posted by Ceicei
A friend kind of teasingly mentioned "the knowledge is reserved only for the secret society of the black belts". :wink1:
- Ceicei

Keep that mysticism alive!!! :rofl:

Originally posted by Ceicei
What motivation is there to continue training on beyond first black?
- Ceicei

Greater Knowledge and Understanding as well as Greater Physical and Teaching skills for starters. (this is also a large list)

Originally posted by Ceicei
What can we expect to pursue once obtaining first black?
- Ceicei

The Depth of the Art.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Thanks for the response:

I am not sure about the scissor as the person was sitting on my legs pinning them and reaching with the hands going for my throat when I executed the Delayed Sword variation I described earlier. It was in the context of a Women's Self Defense seminar, and it worked against the 240 lb guy on top of me. I had to work techniques requiring minimal effort or training as the class was only 6 weeks long and had to include everything from hair grabs to slapping, punching, lots of bear hugs (thanks DOC, that is what I have seen also), and attacks in chairs, with weapons, ect.

We were already on the ground and it was the typical foot or leg "hook" BJJ guys use to get a leverage point, not a sweep or scissor, easier done that explained given different attacker's reactions. But it was still based on Delayed Sword and recognizable as such to my Brown Belts surveying and assisting in my teaching the course. FUN STUFF, but very scary for the women and somewhat uncomfortable for me to teach due to the strong sexual content and implied, if not explicit violence of blinding or trying to kill an attacker. OK, OK, so I admit I liked it. And I got to stretch outside the box a bit, but it was still all Kenpo to me.

-Michael

(edited to change name addressed to.)

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Ceicei, 1st off, sorry for not answering sooner. I will try to be more timely in the future!

Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply. :asian:

No, I never quoted any percentages. If I were it would be somewhat higher, but, I view our base system is like the alphabet which has 26 letters to form its base, out of those 26 letters comes millions of words, out of our Base system comes unlimited expansions.

That percentage was my estimate according to how I had perceived it. I didn't mean to imply that you mentioned percentages. However, your analogy with the alphabet/words made it so much more clear. I understand better the overall picture.

I don't know exactly what your curriculum consists of or how it was taught to you, so it makes it difficult to answer you with a cut and dry answer.

Oh, I am aware that schools, even if some might happen be teaching with the same curriculum, would differ simply because of the background/experience/training of the instructors. Because of that, I was not expecting you to magically know how things would be with my school. Basically, I only sought a generic response that could apply to the majority of schools, such as you did below:

I can tell you this, If you ask any upper rank individual they will tell you there is plenty to not only learn, but know better and understand thoroughly, even if you have been taught a good base!

I guess that I had a temporary worry whether there would be anything more new to learn beyond first black. I rest assured there is plenty to continue on, as evidently shown from the intense discussions of various topics on this EPAK forum.

I get the impression there seem to be a concentration of BBs in this forum than in others. Perhaps there appear to be more kenpo people on MT.

In most circumstances I agree, you learn "most" of the P/C/T but, there could be a few that slipped past for any number or reasons.

Would that be intentional? I surely hope there is plenty more of P/C/Ts left to learn.

Keep that mysticism alive!!! :rofl:

Ah yes, I intend to be part of the "secret society of the black belts" some years down the road and carry on that mysticism! :rofl:

Greater Knowledge and Understanding as well as Greater Physical and Teaching skills for starters. (this is also a large list). The Depth of the Art.

Thank you for explaining more what goes on beyond first black. I will continue on, just as my motto says, martial arts is for life, not the color of the belt. :asian:

- Ceicei

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone

Sure I would. If the situation warranted it. If for some reason my attacker ended up away from me and I wanted to close the distance between us then a cross over is a viable foot meneuver to do this. But that goes for any technique not just the ram techniques. I am 6 foot 250 pounder and I have been hit by guys that are practicaly half my size using these foot meneuvers and stances and believe me they had no problem moving my mass.

Yes, that is one way to close the distance, but there are others besides the twist.

Mike

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Thanks for the response:

I am not sure about the scissor as the person was sitting on my legs pinning them and reaching with the hands going for my throat when I executed the Delayed Sword variation I described earlier.

So how would you do the kick which is part of that tech from the ground with someone sitting on the legs? Do you just toss that kick out or just modify it?

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ceicei
Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply & explaining more what goes on beyond first black. :asian:
I will continue on, just as my motto says, martial arts is for life, not the color of the belt. :asian: - Ceicei

Anytime! Ask away if something is not clear!

Yes, keep on the road, but check your compass once in a while!

:asian:

 

[MJS]

Ok, seeing that some think that they will never encounter certain kinds of attacks, let me ask this question. If a guy gets into a fight and he is a boxer, such as Mike Tyson, what do you think that he's going to resort to for his defense? Well, in addtition to biting he'll most likely punch. A TKD man will most likely kick. A Wing Chun man will probably be protecting his center line, while trying to take yours as well as trapping. A wrestler will most likely clinch.

Will you always be attacked by someone who is a MA? Probably not. Instead it will be your typical thug. Then again, you should be prepared to deal and be familiar with as many different situations as possible.

Taking their opp. out of his game should be the #1 goal. Example- I'm not the greatest puncher. Its something that I need to work on, something that I am working on, and also something that I'm not afraid to admit. I'm not going to stand and box someone, knowing that its a weakness of mine. Instead, I'm going to be trying to clinch, where I can work knees, elbows, etc. By doing this, it takes away from your opp. Same goes for a grappler. If someone wants to grapple, take them out of their game by trying to keep them on their feet.

The point of the story- dont think that just because it didnt happen to you in your "X" number of situations, that it won't happen to someone else!

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by MJS
Ok, seeing that some think that they will never encounter certain kinds of attacks, you should be prepared to deal and be familiar with as many different situations as possible. Just because it didnt happen to you in your "X" number of situations, dosen't mean that it won't happen to someone else! Mike

Absolutely! Which is why our curriculum has so many different facets to it.

As a beginner, we must first learn some coordination and general knowledge about fighting and movement. Along the way be exposed to several different examples or scenarios (since our personal experiences may be limited), then of course train so as to be prepared for the "possibility" of any number of such encounters and develop the ability to formulate for ANY given situation (This of course is a tall order and one in which we are debating about). Just how to do this and what do you need to do to do it.

In the end.... "Condition and Guts, take over where knowledge and skill end".

:asian:

"It's not whose right, but whose left".

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey Doc, in all due respect I would have to say I did see someone shoot for the legs on the street and they did it successfully. I was pulling up to a scene outside a club on a weekend night and as I was approaching this guy was shooting kicks at this other guy-mid to high. As I exited my cruiser and was running up to the scene the other guy came straight in at his legs and took him down to the ground and got in one punch to the mouth, almost two (just missed him) before I could break it up. That was probably, almost 20 years ago, but it stuck in my head and although I haven't seen it since, I saw it once-it worked and once is good enough for me! Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Hey Doc, in all due respect I would have to say I did see someone shoot for the legs on the street and they did it successfully. I was pulling up to a scene outside a club on a weekend night and as I was approaching this guy was shooting kicks at this other guy-mid to high. As I exited my cruiser and was running up to the scene the other guy came straight in at his legs and took him down to the ground and got in one punch to the mouth, almost two (just missed him) before I could break it up. That was probably, almost 20 years ago, but it stuck in my head and although I haven't seen it since, I saw it once-it worked and once is good enough for me! Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

Hey Joe, of course you're right. But I never said ignor it, just put it in context.