"Mainstreaming" the Western Martial Arts

[Stan]

Relative to what it was several years ago, the Western Martial Arts revival is getting to be quite significant. It is also being taken more seriously by martial artists in general. I've seen little knee-jerk reaction in the martial arts community against Western Martial Arts.

However, among the general (non martial artist) population, many of the old stigmas still exist. When the western systems and traditions are mentioned, many laymen either don't believe that there is any native European fighting skill, insisting that western fighters crudely relied on strength, or ridicule the practicioners as Ren-faire LARPer geeks. This hinders the growth of the Western arts in America.

There has been much discussion of the "McDojo", stereotypically a strip-mall Tae Kwon Do school that focuses mainly on teachinig children (in a mediocre way). Acknowledging that too much of a focus on growth, popularity and commercial viablility runs the risk of turning a relatively unknown martial art into this, a certain presence in the public conciounsness is still desireable for any art.

Getting to my point, I have noticed very few schools that teach Western styles present themselves as mainstream martial art schools. They appeal to the long-time committed martial artist who also had an interest in the esoteric historical aspects of training. This is great. I fully support elevating the arts. I myself see my training as much more than something to do after work several times a week. It is not a substitute for a health club membership or a class at the community college. It is a part of my life, and almost an obsession! (Isn't that why we spend all of our time not practicing martial arts on the web discussing martial arts?)

Is there any place for a school that presents a Western art as a mainstream martial art? As a better but equivalent alternative to the local Karate or Tae Kwon Do school? With a family focus, and appealing to people who have no martial arts experience? If not, why not? If you have a Western school, do you actively seek people who list the cliched motivations for studying martial arts for the first time (fitness, self defense, discipline, stress-relief) hoping to give them a favorible first impression of your Western style? Or do you chose to attract people who you know will have a serious martial and historical interest in the art?

I dream of the day when a person looking for self defense doesn't just think "I should take Karate or Jujitsu" but also considers Pugilism, Savate or Catch Wrestling. Is there a reason this cannot happen, without the quality of the Western arts suffering?

 

[Andrew Green]

Boxing, wrestling, fencing... Western Martial Arts are huge...?

I understand what you mean, but recognize the difference. You are mainly talking about dead systems, which Asian countries also have. But to say Western martial arts don't exist on a large scale is like saying asian martial arts don't exist on a large scale because of a lack of large Koryo Kenjitsu schools.

 

[Stan]

I think that the problem is that non-martial-artists don't consider boxing, wrestling and fencing to be martial arts. A person with no experience would gain more self-defense ability in a year at a regular sport boxing gym (I'm not even talking historical bare-knucle here) than they would in a typical Tae Kwon Do school, yet because of the "Oriental Mystique" Tae Kwon Do is conisdered a form of self defense and effective, while boxing is just considered a brutish sport.

This perception hinders the development of Western Martial Arts everywhere.

I find in Modern Arnis there is a similar problem of perception. Anyone new who has heard anything about it says "Oh, Kali stickfighting. Cool, but when would I use a stick?" I frustratedly try to explain, as do all the denizens of the Modern Arnis forum, that Modern Arnis is a complete art that focuses equally on empty hand and weapons, and is by itself a valid form of self-defense. But this doesn't satisfy most people who want "Karate".

In order to be commercially viable, most people who teach Modern Arnis must either have a campus or park district program, or have a school with another primary "money maker" art, and then just teach a few Arnis classes a week. I know that Master of Tapi Tapi Ken Smith has avoided this approach by making empty-hand Arnis his primary art, even for kids. He has an Isshin-Ryu background, but the art he now teaches is Arnis.

 

[ajs1976]

I think the perception comes from movies and TV.

I have started to search the web for information on training in the 'dead' western arts. I was able to find some schools, but a lot of what is out there seems to revolve around renaissance fairs and reenactments. I'm not really interested in either.

 

[Stan]

I agree about movies and TV. How often do you see the Western warrior encounter a Chinese or Japanese man, embarassingly try to demonstrate his pitiful martial prowess, and then when easily defeated agree to study with the Oriental master? Highlander, Last Samurai?

In Jet Li's new Fearless, the Western contenders are mere straw-men.

How many movie katanas have you seen easily slice straight through a saber or rapier?

ENOUGH ALREADY!

 

[Andrew Green]

yes, go figure, Asian martial arts movies make Asian martial arts to be far superior...

 

[James Kovacich]

There is another division of Western Martial Arts, which I fall into. Martial Arts that are "signifantly" modified or created in the West or by a Westerner. Japanese styles were once Chinese influenced and yet they are Japanese etc etc.

If I claimed my system to be asian I would be ridiculed by the "troll bashers."

 

[lklawson]

There seems to be enough interest. Perhaps not as much as EMA because of the general social trends starting back in the late 40's when G.I.'s came home from Japan, 50's & Korea, etc.

Nevertheless, there seems enough interest in the general public. The issue seems to be more one of marketing than anything else. Remember, 90% of all new Martial Arts schools fail within the first 5 years. WMA is under-represented in total, but I suspect that there is actually a higher success rate in WMA.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Jonathan Randall]

There seems to be enough interest. Perhaps not as much as EMA because of the general social trends starting back in the late 40's when G.I.'s came home from Japan, 50's & Korea, etc.

Nevertheless, there seems enough interest in the general public. The issue seems to be more one of marketing than anything else. Remember, 90% of all new Martial Arts schools fail within the first 5 years. WMA is under-represented in total, but I suspect that there is actually a higher success rate in WMA.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

True, but I think a lot of young men still take Western Boxing as a means to "take care of themselves". I know I did - and I was already near black belt in an Asian style at the time.

 

[lklawson]

...I think a lot of young men still take Western Boxing as a means to "take care of themselves". I know I did - and I was already near black belt in an Asian style at the time.

I agree.

Like I said, there seems to be enough interest. Boxing can segue into CaCC, Bowie, etc. pretty easily and from there it's only spitting distance to Spear, Sabre, German Dagger, etc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Samurai]

I have just been given a position teaching Western "Historical" fencing (not sport styles) to kids grades 5-7. Some schools are open to this as a supplement to the history classes. Granted I will only teach about 5 classes total...it is enough to get the taste buds going and maybe some of these kids will sign up with me for more lessons. $$$$

Thanks.
Jeremy Bays

 

[Dave Dickey]

I agree that there needs to be more schools out there that are more mainstream. If for no other reason than to teach the American public about the reality of Western Martial Arts. If our responsibility to teach the public and our job is cut out for us. A couple of years ago I encountered ignorance that was no more than lack of information. I was applying to several Scot/Irish festivals for our "Western" martial arts school to give free lessons. I was told "sorry, it is only a Scot/Irish event." But when I called back and said we teach swordfighting they said "we would love to have you".

The minute they heard the term "martial arts" they thought "Eastern". Let's not even go down the road that "martial arts" is a Western Term.

Our School - Live Steel Fight Academy promotes itself as a Western Martial Arts school that teach all of this as a Martial Art. And we include a full body workout with it. This type of marketing seems to grab the attention of the general American Public and then we go into detail about the arts themselves. And to tell you the truth 90% of the people tell me they want an alternative to the esoteric/believe what I do hype they are finding in Eastern Schools. - Their words not mine....interesting eh?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I agree that there needs to be more schools out there that are more mainstream. If for no other reason than to teach the American public about the reality of Western Martial Arts. If our responsibility to teach the public and our job is cut out for us. A couple of years ago I encountered ignorance that was no more than lack of information. I was applying to several Scot/Irish festivals for our "Western" martial arts school to give free lessons. I was told "sorry, it is only a Scot/Irish event." But when I called back and said we teach swordfighting they said "we would love to have you".

The minute they heard the term "martial arts" they thought "Eastern". Let's not even go down the road that "martial arts" is a Western Term.

Thanks. Good points. This attitude many have towards WMA gets so FRUSTRATING at times. I remember when I told a TKD buddy that I was signing up for boxing in college. His response? "So you're giving up the martial arts?" Uh, sorry, but MARTIAL Arts (fighting arts), include wester styles!

BTW, welcome to Martial Talk, sir!

 

[JoshLittle]

We're fighting a little bit of this now. I've been in recruitment mode for almost a year now, with next to nothing to show for it. Here are some of the "hurdles" I see:

1. The cost factor: This affects some aspects of WMA more than others. Unfortunately, sword arts like ours are the hardest hit. The cost of equipment for us is very high compared to your typical "McDojo" martial art. Your training sword will run between $180 and $430 (aluminum sword from Swordcrafts or steel sword from Arms and Armor - we don't allow wood, nor is wood cost effective. ). Your fencing mask will run $120. Your gambeson (needed after about 3-8 months) will cost $250. Then add gloves, joint protection, etc and you've got a pretty expensive hobby. Then add in more for a single handed sword, dagger, etc. This isn't one of those "inexpensive" hobbies.

2. The demographic problem: I still haven't hit the right "demo" for our type of Western martial art. Most people who want to study a fighting discipline and don't want a typical Karate/Kung-fu system don't tend to then gravitate towards the sword arts. They go to boxing, Krav, or some type of MMA, especially with the whole UFC phenomenon. It takes a certain interest to go looking for a sword/medieval based system. And there are a lot of choices in that arena: the SCA, Olympic fencing, stage/performance combat and even role-playing groups. Most of these have a lower barrier of entry or participation than what we do. The SCA and sport fencing are must more visible than the relatively new WMA groups.

3. The "Gut Check" factor: One reaction I've had a few times from people who I've either shown or told about what we do is along the lines of "You're crazy...". Some of these people have been fighting in one system or another for a decent amount of time. But the sight of two combatants in not much more than a jacket going at each other full speed with metal weapons is somehow off-putting to some (maybe even most) people.

Put these things, as well as other reasons, and I think the idea of "mainstreaming" certain types of WMA is a bit of an uphill climb. I wish it weren't, then I'd probably have more students Others such as boxing/pugilism, wrestling, and even knife fighting may have an easier time of things.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

We're fighting a little bit of this now. I've been in recruitment mode for almost a year now, with next to nothing to show for it. Here are some of the "hurdles" I see:

1. The cost factor: This affects some aspects of WMA more than others. Unfortunately, sword arts like ours are the hardest hit. The cost of equipment for us is very high compared to your typical "McDojo" martial art. Your training sword will run between $180 and $430 (aluminum sword from Swordcrafts or steel sword from Arms and Armor - we don't allow wood, nor is wood cost effective. ). Your fencing mask will run $120. Your gambeson (needed after about 3-8 months) will cost $250. Then add gloves, joint protection, etc and you've got a pretty expensive hobby. Then add in more for a single handed sword, dagger, etc. This isn't one of those "inexpensive" hobbies.

2. The demographic problem: I still haven't hit the right "demo" for our type of Western martial art. Most people who want to study a fighting discipline and don't want a typical Karate/Kung-fu system don't tend to then gravitate towards the sword arts. They go to boxing, Krav, or some type of MMA, especially with the whole UFC phenomenon. It takes a certain interest to go looking for a sword/medieval based system. And there are a lot of choices in that arena: the SCA, Olympic fencing, stage/performance combat and even role-playing groups. Most of these have a lower barrier of entry or participation than what we do. The SCA and sport fencing are must more visible than the relatively new WMA groups.

3. The "Gut Check" factor: One reaction I've had a few times from people who I've either shown or told about what we do is along the lines of "You're crazy...". Some of these people have been fighting in one system or another for a decent amount of time. But the sight of two combatants in not much more than a jacket going at each other full speed with metal weapons is somehow off-putting to some (maybe even most) people.

Put these things, as well as other reasons, and I think the idea of "mainstreaming" certain types of WMA is a bit of an uphill climb. I wish it weren't, then I'd probably have more students Others such as boxing/pugilism, wrestling, and even knife fighting may have an easier time of things.

Maybe it's a blessing in disguies - Western Arts stay hardcore and avoids McDojoism?

BTW, welcome to Martial Talk!

 

[Fionn McCool]

There seems to be enough interest. Perhaps not as much as EMA because of the general social trends starting back in the late 40's when G.I.'s came home from Japan, 50's & Korea, etc.

Nevertheless, there seems enough interest in the general public. The issue seems to be more one of marketing than anything else. Remember, 90% of all new Martial Arts schools fail within the first 5 years. WMA is under-represented in total, but I suspect that there is actually a higher success rate in WMA.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think also, most WMA references are in manuals, and because the EMA have so many instructors, maybe people think that learning from actual people is more realistic, but I could be way off.

 

[sethwoodworth]

Maybe it's a blessing in disguies - Western Arts stay hardcore and avoids McDojoism?

BTW, welcome to Martial Talk!

McDojo's are still out there in WMA. There are plenty of LARPing groups that call what they do WMA. In fact 95% of the videos on googleTube that are labeled WMA are LARPing vids.

There is also the 'soo hardcore' tendency of some MMA and UFC groups get in WMA. A few groups that are very secular and wont cross train with others and so on.

Like all arts you have to judge each school (fechtschule) seperately.

 

[James Kovacich]

McDojo's are still out there in WMA. There are plenty of LARPing groups that call what they do WMA. In fact 95% of the videos on googleTube that are labeled WMA are LARPing vids.

There is also the 'soo hardcore' tendency of some MMA and UFC groups get in WMA. A few groups that are very secular and wont cross train with others and so on.

Like all arts you have to judge each school (fechtschule) seperately.

Excuse my ignorance. What is Larping?

 

[lklawson]

Excuse my ignorance. What is Larping?

Live Action Role Playing.

Essentially D&D where you pose as your character.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk