MA without spirituality or philosophy?

[trueaspirer]

That is, the practical, modern mas. Good or bad? There can be multiple ways of viewing it. On one side you have the idea that spirituality just bogs down the actual techniques, and does little good. On the other hand, though, the philosophy behind all mas is what drives them, what keeps them what they have been for so many centuries.

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't think it is really possible, But you can definately do it without the stereotypical Asian take on it. Just like all sports

 

[Xue Sheng]

It is intrinsic.

 

[MA-Caver]

Personally... I think it would be impossible to have a MA without either. It would be nothing more than an exercise if there were no philosophy or spiritual connection of the mind to body to do what must be done in a SD situation.

 

[matt.m]

Personally... I think it would be impossible to have a MA without either. It would be nothing more than an exercise if there were no philosophy or spiritual connection of the mind to body to do what must be done in a SD situation.

Philosophy:

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

Spirituality: n 1: property or income owned by a church. 2: concern with things of the spirit.

I disagree. I am sorry but you can certainly have a career in the martial arts without philosophy and without spirituality. The mind/body or mind/muscle connection has nothing to do with philosophy and spirituality would be better coorelated with religion than with self defense.

 

[OUMoose]

I disagree. I am sorry but you can certainly have a career in the martial arts without philosophy and without spirituality. The mind/body or mind/muscle connection has nothing to do with philosophy and spirituality would be better coorelated with religion than with self defense.

I think you can have Martial Arts today that don't concern themselves with spirituality and still be successful (MMA's and "reality" arts come to mind immediately). However nothing like this can exist without philosophy. Matt.m posted some definitions of Philosophy. The first one stood out, IMO:

Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.

Is that not, in itself, what training in the Martial Arts is?

 

[matt.m]

Nah, I say this because with philosophy then you bring into account morals and ethics. You don't need either to practice a side kick. I think you learn and gain responsibility as your knowledge appreciates though.

 

[FearlessFreep]

My philosophy and my spirituality both come from my spritual beliefes (Christian) with both pre-date and guide my martiall arts. So you could say I have spirituality in my MA, but the spirituality preceeds and trancends the MA as opposed to be a product of it

 

[OUMoose]

Nah, I say this because with philosophy then you bring into account morals and ethics. You don't need either to practice a side kick. I think you learn and gain responsibility as your knowledge appreciates though.

True, however without morals and ethics, how will you know when to side kick? Without those, you're just lifting your leg funny.

 

[pstarr]

The various philosophies are what have kept the martial arts alive for so long. Without a philosophical foundation, a martial art quickly degenerates into a sophisticated form of streetfighting.

There's a difference.

 

[Kacey]

True, however without morals and ethics, how will you know when to side kick? Without those, you're just lifting your leg funny.

The various philosophies are what have kept the martial arts alive for so long. Without a philosophical foundation, a martial art quickly degenerates into a sophisticated form of streetfighting.

There's a difference.

I agree with you both - and well said, each of you. :asian:

 

[trueaspirer]

I don't think that you need philosophy to do a side kick, no. But it is what has kept ma alive and growing for so long. Without it, you might still be able to defend yourself, but the life has gone out of whatever you have studied. You will never be quite what you could have been with it.

 

[Last Fearner]

Reality - - There is no such thing as the "Martial Art" without both spirituality and philosophy. It can not be done without changing the nature of the Martial Art into something that is not the Martial Art. These are ingredients that are as integral to what the Martial Art is as Oxygen, and Hydrogen are to what water is.

The younger generation who views the Martial Art merely as a system of self defense techniques, or a method of fighting (in the ring, or in the street), and they think they have the Martial Art "figured out," and understood, have no clue of what they are talking about. It is not a matter of personal opinion, or "this is what the Martial Art is to me." You can not re-define the Martial Art in the 20th, or 21st Century to make it into what you want it to be. It is what it is, and you either study it, learn it, and come to understand it, or you do not!

Those who have committed a lifetime of study, and remained spiritual, and philosophical about the Martial Art, understand its nature, and know the difference between the Art, and the skill of fighting, and performing techniques.

Truth is not "figured out" - - it is revealed to the enlightened disciple of nature's way. The Martial Way is not your way, or my way, it is simply THE Way. Understand this philosophy, and realize that you are alive with a spirit that might, or might not be in accord with nature, and then you will be on the path of the Martial Art. Fail to realize this, and you are simply a fighter who has mislabeled what you are doing.

Respectfully,
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[pstarr]

Very, very well put! :asian:

 

[Ram]

Can you have martial arts without spirituality yes. Without philosophy probably not. But you never know

True, however without morals and ethics, how will you know when to side kick? Without those, you're just lifting your leg funny.

Morals and ethics dose not have to come from a spiritual source but can come from a social and physiological beginning. But yes, for good or bad you need to know when to kick and when you do not need to.

 

[jkd friend]

You need them both sense they were rooted on both!

 

[MBuzzy]

Martial Arts were founded based on a great deal of spiritual ideals, but was this because of the arts and techniques themselves or the beliefs of those creating them.

I personally believe that sprituality is important in MA for many of the reasons discussed, basically the morality aspect.

But the practice also requires self control and a degree of inner calm and relaxation. Sprituality helps someone attain these things.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think the spiritual aspect comes with age and the knowledge of what one could do, and the search to a higher meaning to life. It is not a necessity to learning because the martial arts are about making war on one another not loving one another.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Saying that the "spirituality" or the "philosophy" of a martial art is important for morals seems like a shaky argument to me. It kinda implies that people are sociopaths 'til they start studying them.

And morality need not be attached to spirituality, but must be attached to philosophy.

Just my two cents.

Jeff

 

[Kacey]

And morality need not be attached to spirituality, but must be attached to philosophy.

Oooh, I like that one... I might steal it! Do you mind?

I would tend to agree - morality must have a reason, or it won't be flexible enough to deal with variable situations; one must understand the reasons for and methods of various levels of response or one cannot respond appropriately. Rules are guidelines, but situations must be accounted for; no set of rules, no matter how inclusive, can cover every eventuality, and good decision making is based on understanding of underlying concepts - in this case, philosophy, or whatever you care to call it.