Looking for an Iaito

Discussion in 'Japanese Swords and Sword Arts' started by HawkHunt, Jul 27, 2016.

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  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So if i get a sword from a known smith. One of your recomended guysI am not getting a name brand sword?

    You need to seriously stop with the insults and personal attacks by the way. Try explaining your position in a way that someone who may not know will begin to know.
     
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  2. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Oh, just one more thing. Yeah. It's the same as carpentry. Much more niche, but it's a skilled trade. So, while the universe of qualified people is much smaller, the idea is exactly the same, As jks said, there may be fewer than a dozen in the country, As I said, even if there are only one or two, the idea is the same.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Lol... on an iPad. Forgive me if I don't run my posts by my editor. ;)
     
  4. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    1786 USD for my last forge. 140 USD one sun which is just over an inch to polish one side (4400 USD). Smithing is the cheapest part.

    Blades used for cutting (Battojutsu) are what is called hantogi (half polish) so they bite. Full polish for a shinken for practice. What makes it cheaper now is they use machines to do most of the work.
     
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  5. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I believe you.
     
  6. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    [/QUOTE]

    First, I only mentioned Forged in Fire as a "reference" essentially "you may have actually seen the guy", of course making a Katar has no relevance to making a Katana.

    As for polishing and fittings, you are correct traditionally, but when you are a "one man" operation, like David is, he does actually do all of that himself as a consequence of the nature of his business.

    Finally yes, maybe such a person is outside of the OPs price range. Also I don't think anyone was saying "oh screw the advice of all these other people. I think all that was being said was "talk to your sensei, listen to his guidance, but also be aware that you MAY find options he has not considered such as a local swordsmith who has the knowledge not just of Japanese sword making and possibly the art you study as well.".

    Also If the smith is the least bit reputable they will tell you "yeah sorry would love to help but I can't meet the specifications you are seeking" or in the case of very particular martial arts styles "I don't even know where to start in terms of specifications. I know that happened with me when I was looking to have a custom ginunting made. The smith is VERY good with European designs (I did order a Messer from him) but when I told him I wanted the ginunting for actual FMA use, with a properly carved hardwood handle (being in the US I was willing to budge and not say "must be kamagong") he was honest and said that was outside his comfort zone.

    In short if the sensei doesn't say "no" it never hurts to just ask the smith.
     
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  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    No, you're not. The fact that you don't get this speaks to the next point...

    There are no insults, and no personal attacks. You don't know what you're talking about. You come onto a number of threads where you don't know what you're talking about, and continue to argue with people who correct you and give you better information. That is one reason you have so many people put you on their ignore list. Stop it, and you'll get more respect here.

    Again, the fact that you think it's the same shows, again, that you don't know what you're talking about here. Because, no, it's not. If you want an analogy, though, it's like finding someone who is an expert at 15th Century French Woodturning for childrens toys... not a Master Carpenter.

    Sure.

    So, I see you went back and edited...

    No, Steve, it's not. And the comment wasn't that they wouldn't know what an iaito was (Iaido is the art, iaito is the sword... just for the record...), it's that a blade smith isn't someone who makes iaito, and that someone who wasn't very well spec'd up on Japanese swords specifically, and the requirements and parameters of an iaito, as well as the needs of Iaido itself, would likely not have the requisite knowledge to create even an okay replica in anything other than rough shape.

    But the fact is that there are no iaito makers in the US... they're all in Japan and China (with the quality ones typically being those from Japan). The first Iaito were made by Meirin Sangyo a bit over 100 years ago... with other companies coming along later. And, due to it's socialisation, there's little reason for anyone outside of these companies to make them... certainly not a single person by themselves. Iaito, once again, aren't made the same way... they're cast, not forged... so a blade smith wouldn't even be doing something similar to their regular work.

    Seriously, this is not speculation, Steve, it's education and knowledge of the topic. You can listen to us, or you can continue to be wrong. Either way, your opinion is valueless in this area.

    Steve. Seriously. There is no fear. There is no insecurity. There is frustration at having to cover the same damn ground again and again as you won't stop going on about this unrealistic idea you have.

    And have refused to listen when told that, no, for the needs of the OP, and this thread, there aren't.

    No, he didn't. He provided an example of someone in the US who has been trained in a Japanese sword smithing school... which is not what is needed or asked for.

    You don't know this topic, and you haven't listened when corrected. The issue has been that you've been trying to suggest an unrealistic option is valid...it's not. You've been told that. You've had explained to you why. Yet you continue to hound the thread with it.

    My arrogance, Steve? Really? How about the arrogance of arguing against the accepted experience and expertise on this thread?

    Steve, grow up.

    Sure. It came across as a part of his credibility in your mind, which is why I pointed out that it's really not a point in his favour.

    Which is not typical, nor usual, hence my commonly that, typically, it's not that way.

    That's not the entire point itself, though... it's also that David makes shinken... live swords... not Iaito, which is what the OP is needing/after... so is not an option even in the first place, regardless of cost.

    Then I'll give you the words of an instructor.

    If you find something outside of what I recommend, you can buy it, bring it along to class, and I'll make an assessment. Bear in mind, you could be out hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for something you'll not be allowed to use... so the risk is entirely on you.

    In other words, no, this is not good advice at all... and that goes triple for a beginner, who won't know what to look for in the first place. I've had students come along with weapons they think are fine (wooden training ones), and I've told them they'll make some good kindling... and are, under no circumstances, to be brought back to the class, or used.

    Oh, for Christ's sake...

    What's the point of this? Seriously? Why on earth are you guys pushing such a low-potential, low percentage option? It's not a good idea in general, and, in the rare case that there is someone local that can cover the bases needed, the odds are that the instructor will be very aware of them... but the real issue here is that none of this is suited to the requirements of a beginner needing an Iaito!! None of it! Drop the issue, it's completely irrelevant for the thread, the OP, his needs, and anything else.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Sorry, Chris. Can you tell me what unrealistic thing I'm talking about? And try to be concise, for once.
     
  9. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Perhaps because I am NOT saying "screw the advise of others, just look for a local swordsmith" and rather "examine all potential options and of course bring them to your sensei and then do a cost/benefit analysis before you decide" This, the last time I checked, is how you should make all decisions. Since the OP says...

    cliff notes "do I have other possible options in getting a blade..." You raised the issue that a local smith may not be capable of making an appropriate blade and even if they can it would be outside the OP's price point. I was only raising the point that a reputable smith will be up front and tell you if one, or both, of these factors is the case. How that is irrelevant is beyond me.
     
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  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    It's unrealistic that you are offering advice on purchasing equipment for an art you don't study, in a field you have no experience, with no understanding of the requirements and needs of the art or weapon, from sources you don't know, over the recommendations of other sources you don't know, and over the advice and recommendations of people who do know the field and area.

    Except that's not what has been suggested through the thread. The lack of knowledge shown by a number of participants in this thread show that no, this is not the best way to go about it. I get that it seems to make sense, but you might have also noticed that not one single person who has any idea of the subject has agreed. That's probably the biggest clue as to whether or not it's actually a practical answer.

    He didn't ask for a blade, he asked for an Iaito. And, knowing how instructors think, and how they recommend items to beginners, the weapon selected would likely have been a few hundred dollars, so the advice given is not realistic, and looking for blades (sharp) that are not iaito is irrelevant to his needs and requests.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    One, that's not concise. I deleted the extra bits.

    Two, I offered no advice on purchasing equipment. I only suggested that, if someone local is qualified, that could be an option. And then, I pointed out that it's weird that you guys would say there is no such thing as a local expert, and also tried to be clear that I never intended to suggest that anyone go to an incompetent. Well, so, then, maybe that can be considered advice: don't buy anything from an incompetent craftsman. But I don't think that's too controversial.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok.

    Why not?
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I am not looking to get respect from people who would not respect me for who i am. That is their choice to ignore me or not.

    That would just be silly. I Am an adult i don't need validation from everyone i associate with.

    I don't see why you place so much importance on how popular someone is.

    Now this is what i was trying to convey to steve. It is not just about a sword. You could in practical terms use a broom stick. But there is all these issues with respect and authority attached.

    Which you are terrible at conveying.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  14. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    So... not only do you not have any idea of the field of Japanese sword, Iaido, and related concepts, you can decide what is relevant or not in my list of the issues with your comments? You don't even know why the items you deleted are a part of the issue, but you decided that they weren't needed? And you think I'm arrogant?

    Dude.

    Okay, more concise.

    Your comments and ideas are unrealistic in that they go against actual reality.

    Crap, Steve. You didn't specially say "get it from this guy", but you have been pushing the idea of looking to a particular type of source, which you have been told repeatedly is not relevant to the topic, realistic to the OP, or even what is asked for. That is you offering (bad) advice.

    Without once listening to why it's not an option.

    It's not weird, Steve, it's reality. That it doesn't match your expectations of what reality is doesn't enter into it.

    And that has not be argued... the issue has been your idea that there are any in the first place. That's why we say "no". Your idea is not based in reality.

    It's the same as if you're buying a painting... a Renoir isn't a "name brand", it's a particular, unique and individual piece created by a singular artist. A "name brand" would be a famous line of mass-manufactured items of a particular product... you can get a "name brand" iaito, for example (Minosaka, Tozando, Meirin Sangyo, Bishamonten...), but not a forged shinken by a traditional smith.

    Dude, I place no importance on it whatsoever. What I do place importance on, though, when it comes to an online forum for sharing ideas and conversations, is that people do respect each other enough to be able to hold some kind of conversation, where both sides are listened to. You don't care about that, and think that it's the same thing as people not respecting you for "who you are"... it's not that... it's that the way you conduct yourself here is not conducive to actual, you know, conversation.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Okay. It's just easier to copy and paste at this point.

    I offered no advice on purchasing equipment. I only suggested that, if someone local is qualified, that could be an option. And then, I pointed out that it's weird that you guys would say there is no such thing as a local expert, and also tried to be clear that I never intended to suggest that anyone go to an incompetent. Well, so, then, maybe that can be considered advice: don't buy anything from an incompetent craftsman. But I don't think that's too controversial.
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    You offered advice on sources to purchase from, and that advice was bad.

    You suggested that, if someone was local and qualified, they could be an option... sure, but the reality is that there isn't any for an Iaito, which makes your advice based in no knowledge of the field, unrealistic, and bad.

    You said it's weird that we say there's no such thing as a local expert for a locally sourced Iaito, and I'm saying it's not weird, it's the reality. You don't know this, and expect that you should be able to find something that matches your expectations, despite them being based in no actual knowledge of the area. Your idea is not based in reality.

    You're the only one who has even brought up the idea of suggesting an "incompetent" person as a source, something no-one else has even mentioned, let alone said is a good idea... seriously, I don't know who you think you're informing there.

    Want to try again?
     
  17. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Also If the smith is the least bit reputable they will tell you "yeah sorry would love to help but I can't meet the specifications you are seeking" or in the case of very particular martial arts styles "I don't even know where to start in terms of specifications. I know that happened with me when I was looking to have a custom ginunting made. The smith is VERY good with European designs (I did order a Messer from him) but when I told him I wanted the ginunting for actual FMA use, with a properly carved hardwood handle (being in the US I was willing to budge and not say "must be kamagong") he was honest and said that was outside his comfort zone.

    In short if the sensei doesn't say "no" it never hurts to just ask the smith.[/QUOTE]

    I get my blades from Carigara Leyte.

    A bit off topic but on a much heavier note I gave a signed kodachi with no mekugi ana (peg hole) to freind who said he could get it drilled and a decent tsuka put on it by an excellent Philippine craftsman. The blade was already polished. I got it back "Chrome plated". Not only that but he used an angle grinder to make a point out of the nakago and drive it into a wooden handle.
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    sure, Chris. I'll try again.

    I never advised anyone to do anything. Just went back and looked. I did ask the question about a local smith. You answered it.

    Other people, like Brian, suggested that a local expert would be incompetent. I pointed out that this would then, by definition, not be an expert. But I still didn't say anyone should or even that it's viable. Only that, if there's a person around, it's an option.

    Other people, like jks, said that there aren't many guys who could do it. I didn't disagree with that at all. He's probably right. But if there is a local guy, why not look into it? May not make sense, but that's not for me to judge.

    Other people, like hyoho, have said that buying an iaido is a personal, spiritual thing. And that you work with smiths, not vendors. I pointed out that, where money is involved, the person could be both. but I never challenged any of his other statements.

    Bottom line, there is a difference between "local expert" is probably cost prohibitive and they aren't all that common, and "local experts" don't exist and if you buy one locally it will be junk. You and others came around to the former, the long way, but started with the latter. And now, you're taking my comments out of context, and trying to rewrite my words so that they say something they didn't.

    Frankly. It just seems to me that you are so used to hiding what you mean in too many words, you read hidden meaning where it doesn't exist.

    Do you want to try again? No matter how many times you tell me what I meant, it's not going to change what I actually meant. I know you'd love to catch me pretending to know things I don't, but that's your gig, not mine.
     
  19. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Please keep this discussion civil. You can disagree with each other, and even attack the message, but the messenger is hands-off.
     
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  20. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    This is of course something that is done in Japan. It also acts as security barrier. I guess somebody will find something but as yet I have not seen YouTubes of backyard slashers in Japan. Maybe some Westerners could learn from that. There's entertainment/sensationalism and there is Iaido/ Battojutsu and sadly some people mix them.

    But without doubt its a personal item. I good Iaidoka will make blade look good. Likewise a good blade will make 'you' look good. I have seen some mediocre embu over the years because sadly the guy has the wrong weapon. Japanese swords are for Japanese people. A foreigner often needs something bigger/longer to excel.
     
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