Long and short range Tan Sao

[futsaowingchun]

In this video I show how the Tan Sao is applied in long and short ranges, and the concept of the short and long range Tan Sao as used in Wing Chun.

 

[geezer]

Thanks for the video and explanation. Basically I have no problem with what I saw. In our branch of VT we may use something similar, but the concept and explanation would differ. Allow me to elucidate:

We don't have long and short tan sau in Chum Kiu. And even when we do perform the "seeds": tan, bong, fook, etc. in different positions or levels such as our high tan sau (ko tan sau) in SNT and double low bong sau (sheung dai bong sau) in CK, the understanding is that there are not really many tans or bongs, but just many positions that our opponent's energy may bend our arm into. Basically there is only "loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung" ....just a strike on centerline that is intercepted and pressed or bent into a deflecting position.

On the other hand, you could just as easily, and correctly say that there are an infinity of tans and bongs. It really amounts to the same thing. Maintain forward intent, follow your opponent's center and make your arms press out like springs.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Thanks for the video and explanation. Basically I have no problem with what I saw. In our branch of VT we may use something similar, but the concept and explanation would differ. Allow me to elucidate:

We don't have long and short tan sau in Chum Kiu. And even when we do perform the "seeds": tan, bong, fook, etc. in different positions or levels such as our high tan sau (ko tan sau) in SNT and double low bong sau (sheung dai bong sau) in CK, the understanding is that there are not really many tans or bongs, but just many positions that our opponent's energy may bend our arm into. Basically there is only "loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung" ....just a strike on centerline that is intercepted and pressed or bent into a deflecting position.

On the other hand, you could just as easily, and correctly say that there are an infinity of tans and bongs. It really amounts to the same thing. Maintain forward intent, follow your opponent's center and make your arms press out like springs.

I think what your staying in the end is no different. We might only have different ways of explaining them the same thing. Some sifu's say there is only 1 tan sao.Som say 3 but like you said " There is an infinity"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like your long Tan Shou principle. It's very similar to

- the "rhino guard" concept,

- the "zombie arms" concept.

- the "stiff arm" concept.

 

[JPinAZ]

John, I am not following and have to disagree. IMO, you are showing more of a stiff-arm static 'pressing' structure, where the 'action' of tan sau is typically to spread/dissipate energy on the kiu/bridge.

TBH, I'm not even sure what the 'zombie arms' is representing here as there is not bridge at all (?)

 

[yak sao]

TBH, I'm not even sure what the 'zombie arms' is representing here as there is not bridge at all (?)

Dead structure ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not even sure what the 'zombie arms' is representing here as there is not bridge at all (?)

At 0.42, if he use his left hand to push on his opponent's right arm to free his own right arm, since his right hand is already so close to his opponent's face, his right hand can strike on his opponent's face with very short distance.

The "zombie arms (or octopus arms)" is similar to the Tan Shou. Instead of putting your "long Tan Shou" hand close to your opponent's face, you use "zombie arms" to move your hands close you your opponent's wrists.

You extend both of your arms and move both of your hands next to your opponent's wrists. Your hands may touch on your opponent's wrists, or may just stay few inches away from it. This way when your opponent intends to do something, your hands can interrupt his action during the early stage.

To me, the concept of Tan Shou is to more than just a "bridge" used to block an incoming punch. If I can extend my

- left arm between my opponent's right arm and his head.
- right arm between his left arm and his head,

I can "separate" both of his arms away from his body and "occupy his center".

- To "occupy my opponent's center" is my goal.
- The double Tan Shou can help me to reach to my goal.

 

[JPinAZ]

John,

While I agree, the 'lonag taan sao' has the hand already close to the face and you probably could 'hit' him from there - but will it have much effect? And what do you give up?
Speaking purely from WC principle and mechanics POV, the reason I say this is:
1. The arm is already extended probably further than it should be to have proper WC structure/connection to the rest of the body. So, there will be little-to-no energy generated if striking from there since it's 'sao' has already 'fired it's shot' leaving little distance left for the elbow to travel to generate necessary power to do anything. And if you do, you are creating a pretty big distortion for still having 2 hands operating as one with equal reach (losing duie yeng or juei yeng facing)
2. the opponent's shoulder is in the way

As for your zombie arms explanation, I'm not sure we're talking WC 'dispersing hand' at this point (?). So why not just discuss Taan Sao vs. mixing in non-WC techniques to describe WC-specific concepts?

In my experience, taan sao does not typically bridge on the wrist. That is using the tool at the wrong contact/leverage point and range per WC gate & box theories. Which is why my lineage also has Taan Kiu for when the leverage point is incorrect or range is wrong, but that's another subject

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Speaking purely from WC principle and mechanics POV,..

I like to look at this from general MA point of view instead. The WC Tan Shou and WC Bong Shou (you can hide your head next to it to avoid a head punch during clinch) have much more application potential than you may think.

While I agree, the 'lonag taan sao' has the hand already close to the face and you probably could 'hit' him from there - but will it have much effect? And what do you give up?

You can use your Tan Shou as part of your punch (or just finger jab at your opponent's eyes which doesn't need much power). You use it to "deflect" whatever that may be in your striking path. This way you start to generate your punching power during your initial Tan Shou stage. The way you change your Tan Shou into a punch is more like a "spiral punch".

You use your Tan Shou to penetrate your opponent's guard. You then get to his head. Your Tan Shou can be just like a giant drill machine that can drill a hole through your opponent's strong defense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is an example that your Tan Shou (bridge) has been changed into a punch. This kind of "switch hand" is quite unique in CMA.

 

[geezer]

I'd call that a spring-loaded man-sau being released with a rear-hand pak-sau. But then man-sau, tan-sau, bong-sau are all just bent springs, as is your body and stance/steps. Although this example is actually JKD, the principles are still WC. "When the hand is freed, thrust forward" ...Lat-sau jik chung.

 

[Danny T]

I'd call that a spring-loaded man-sau being released with a rear-hand pak-sau. But then man-sau, tan-sau, bong-sau are all just bent springs, as is your body and stance/steps. Although this example is actually JKD, the principles are still WC. "When the hand is freed, thrust forward" ...Lat-sau jik chung.

Yep, what is shown isn't a tan sao.
Also when one extends their arm as shown in the "rhino" simply jut or jum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Lee's posture looks quite like the Tan Shou to me.

- His elbow is in the center of his chest.
- His hand is pointing at his opponent's head.
- His center line is covered by his right arm.
- He guards his center from inside out.
- His arm is making a "bridge" with his opponent's arm.

The only missing part is Lee's right palm is facing side way instead of facing up. But that should not matter. The arm shape is important. The palm shape is not.

 

[yak sao]

Lee's posture looks quite like the Tan Shou to me.

- His elbow is in the center of his chest.
- His hand is pointing at his opponent's head.
- His center line is covered by his right arm.
- He guards his center from inside out.
- His arm is making a "bridge" with his opponent's arm.

The only missing part is Lee's right palm is facing side way instead of facing up. But that should not matter. The arm shape is important. The palm shape is not.

Except that tan sau is not a technique but a movement. Tan sau, as used in our lineage, is a momentary disruption of our attack as it seeks the center.
The structure is there because it creates the optimal angle for being able to disperse an attack.
Once it has served its purpose it springs back out. The structure is something that is flown through not to.
In fact, the tan sau structure may not fully materialize at all, but only a small portion of it may be all that is needed to release the arm back on its original mission.
Put another way, the tan sau is not a noun but a verb.

 

[geezer]

Except that tan sau is not a technique but a movement. .

I agree. It's not a technique or hand position. It's about movement and how you handle the energy you receive. So you can perform the function of tan ...or jum. jut, pak etc. even wearing gloves while the hand is held in a fist.

Alan Orr shows this in his gloved training. This may actually be more "advanced" and difficult to do, but more applicable in sparring. Another fighter, Emin used to prefer teaching the basic WT lat-sau drills with the hands held as fists for the same reason.

 

[JPinAZ]

I like to look at this from general MA point of view instead. The WC Tan Shou and WC Bong Shou (you can hide your head next to it to avoid a head punch during clinch) have much more application potential than you may think.

While it's good to compare and contrast with other arts, I like to look at WC-specific techniques & application from WC-specific principle/concept - it's always much simpler that way. IMO, if we have to start talking about WC-specific ideas from a general MA's POV, then we start moving away from WC principle. At that point, are we really talking about WC anymore?
You even said yourself that Taan Sao was unique to WC, so why would we muddy the waters by trying to talk about it from outside a WC principle-based perspective?

For your Bruce Lee example, I'd agree with the others that this isn't what I'd call WC taan sau (taan sau, while having a specific 'WC shape' is typically viewed more as an action). I'd say this appears to be more just Lee's idea of Bai Jong ready position. I'd go further and call it more of a jong sau hand shape, but since his body alignment and facing don't fit within what I would view as WC structure, facing and gate theories to correctly support that shape, it's probably better not to use his JKD ideas to discuss WC. Which brings me back to my point, why not just discuss WC ideas from WC POV?

 

[JPinAZ]

You can use your Tan Shou as part of your punch (or just finger jab at your opponent's eyes which doesn't need much power). You use it to "deflect" whatever that may be in your striking path. This way you start to generate your punching power during your initial Tan Shou stage. The way you change your Tan Shou into a punch is more like a "spiral punch".

Thanks for your further clarification. I'm not sure your idea of what wing chun taan sau and what mine is is the same. Maybe this is because you look at it from a general MA pov vs. wc principle pov?

For me, Tan sau is often used as part of WC 4-gate defense strategies. As such, the taan hand is not typically pointing at the opponent as it "deflects/'disperses' the energy away from the A-to-B centerline to the corner of the gate upper. What you are talking about wouldn't work in that regard. While we can surely strike from that position, the taan would have to change to something else as it comes back to center. But typically in the instance of 4-gate, it would be much easier to then attack with the wu sau backup hand, which is supported by HFY's ideas of 2-line/simultaneous offence/defense.

I do like your idea of the tan sao into fwd spiral punch. This is more inline with our Taan Kiu energetics I mentioned earlier.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

[

if we have to start talking about WC-specific ideas from a general MA's POV, then we start moving away from WC principle.

I'm not talking about other CMA systems here because other CMA systems don't have Tan Shou. To me, Tan is a straight line that shoots out from the center of my chest.

At this point of my life, I only care about how to "use different tools to achieve my goal". My tools may come from many different CMA systems such as WC. Since I'm using WC principle to meet my need. I believe I'm still talking about WC here.

I do like your idea of the tan sao into fwd spiral punch.

I want to move my arms in 2 straight lines and separate my opponent's arms from his head so I can get a "head lock" on him. The WC "double Tan Shou" can be used as those 2 straight lines that both starts from the center of my chest and go toward my opponent.

 

[paitingman]

The arm shape is important. The palm shape is not.

I think you're right about that. but you cannot turn your palm without rotating the forearm. just a subtle difference

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This a "long Tang Shou". You can see how easy that his fingers can attack his opponent's eyes.