Loi Lau Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chong

[DanT]

This saying: "Loi Lau Hoi Song, Lat Sau, Jik Chong" could be translated in many ways. I belive the most direct translation could be:

"Come Receive Leave Eject, Free Hand, Straight Rush."

Does this phrase have any deeper meaning in terms of your Wing Chun? How does it apply in your sparring and combat strategies?

 

[LFJ]

Probably the one maxim that gets mangled most of all.

People use very loose interpretations and end up with all sorts of meanings.

I belive the most direct translation could be:

"Come Receive Leave Eject, Free Hand, Straight Rush."

Not bad, but "receive" and "eject" are interpretations, not accurate translations.
The most direct translation of each word would be:

Loi = come
Lau = stay
Heui = go
Sung = send

Lat = discard
Sau = hand
Jik = straight
Chung = rush

Does this phrase have any deeper meaning in terms of your Wing Chun? How does it apply in your sparring and combat strategies?

Loi lau = "when they advance, don't retreat"
Heui sung = "when they retreat, advance"

This means to cut off their attacks and pressure them onto the defensive.

Lat sau = "discard the hands"
Jik Chung = "and rush straight"

This means to not chase hands, but attack center (forward force).

 

[wckf92]

Probably the one maxim that gets mangled most of all.

People use very loose interpretations and end up with all sorts of meanings.



Not bad, but "receive" and "eject" are interpretations, not accurate translations.
The most direct translation of each word would be:

Loi = come
Lau = stay
Heui = go
Sung = send

Lat = discard
Sau = hand
Jik = straight
Chung = rush



Loi lau = "when they advance, don't retreat"
Heui sung = "when they retreat, advance"

This means to cut off their attacks and pressure them onto the defensive.

Lat sau = "discard the hands"
Jik Chung = "and rush straight"

This means to not chase hands, but attack center (forward force).

Thanks LFJ, interesting to read the differences between interpretation vs translation.
Could you do the same for LSDD? (Common interpretations vs direct translations) thx!

 

[LFJ]

Thanks LFJ, interesting to read the differences between interpretation vs translation.
Could you do the same for LSDD? (Common interpretations vs direct translations) thx!

Well,

"Lin ___ daai ___" is a common grammatical construction that means "both ___ and ___".

Literally it's "linking" something "with" something else.

E.g.; 连大带小 = both old and young (lit. big and small).

When verbs are inserted into this construction it means the two things are happening simultaneously.

We insert siu (to eliminate) and da (to strike).

Can't speak for other lineages or styles that use this line, but for us, it means our strikes also eliminate obstructions.

 

[wckf92]

Well,

"Lin ___ daai ___" is a common grammatical construction that means "both ___ and ___".

Literally it's "linking" something "with" something else.

E.g.; 连大带小 = both old and young (lit. big and small).

When verbs are inserted into this construction it means the two things are happening simultaneously.

We insert siu (to eliminate) and da (to strike).

Can't speak for other lineages or styles that use this line, but for us, it means our strikes also eliminate obstructions.

Cool. Thank you LFJ!

 

[DanT]

Probably the one maxim that gets mangled most of all.

People use very loose interpretations and end up with all sorts of meanings.



Not bad, but "receive" and "eject" are interpretations, not accurate translations.
The most direct translation of each word would be:

Loi = come
Lau = stay
Heui = go
Sung = send

Lat = discard
Sau = hand
Jik = straight
Chung = rush



Loi lau = "when they advance, don't retreat"
Heui sung = "when they retreat, advance"

This means to cut off their attacks and pressure them onto the defensive.

Lat sau = "discard the hands"
Jik Chung = "and rush straight"

This means to not chase hands, but attack center (forward force).

I heard "Chung" has a deeper meaning than "Rush", do you mind explaining how "Chung" best translates?

 

[LFJ]

I heard "Chung" has a deeper meaning than "Rush", do you mind explaining how "Chung" best translates?

It has many possible translations depending on what you mean by it.

In our context, "to go straight ahead", "to rush", "to charge" are the most accurate because it means to attack straight forward.
https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=冲

Of course, in Chinese, words are made by combining characters of individual meanings, and in this way we come up with words like 冲击 meaning "to attack", being a combination of chung and another character meaning "to hit". Also 冲进 meaning "to charge in", combing chung with "to advance"/"to enter".

So, if you don't like "rush" you could say "charge" or "attack", and they'd both give the correct meaning or idea.

I tend to say rush because the character often has to do with water, like how water dashes against rocks, or to "flush" the toilet in Chinese you "chung" the water. But in our context, maybe charge or just attack would be most clear and accurate.

You even hear "straight blast" for jik-chung, or "blast straight" (verb), not meaning with chain punches necessarily, but forwarding force as opposed to staying out messing with their arms.

 

[wckf92]

It has many possible translations depending on what you mean by it.

In our context, "to go straight ahead", "to rush", "to charge" are the most accurate because it means to attack straight forward.
https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=冲

Of course, in Chinese, words are made by combining characters of individual meanings, and in this way we come up with words like 冲击 meaning "to attack", being a combination of chung and another character meaning "to hit". Also 冲进 meaning "to charge in", combing chung with "to advance"/"to enter".

So, if you don't like "rush" you could say "charge" or "attack", and they'd both give the correct meaning or idea.

I tend to say rush because the character often has to do with water, like how water dashes against rocks, or to "flush" the toilet in Chinese you "chung" the water. But in our context, maybe charge or just attack would be most clear and accurate.

You even hear "straight blast" for jik-chung, or "blast straight" (verb), not meaning with chain punches necessarily, but forwarding force as opposed to staying out messing with their arms.

Good stuff!

 

[Danny T]

My Sifu (who is chinese and grew up & trained in Hong Kong) explains it as:
"Stay with what comes" meaning you don't retreat but rather intercept the attack. It also doesn't mean just stand there.
"Follow as it retreats" means go toward the core.
"Where there is nothing Rush in" means crash forward with the whole body as you attack.

 

[geezer]

Thanks to LFJ for his clarification of the Cantonese. Each branch has their interpretation, but it is useful to see the actual, common meaning implied by the terms.

My old sifu simply said, Stay with what comes, Follow the retreat, thrust-forward when the hand is freed.
Interpretation can lead elsewhere. My si-dai, who was engaged to be married at the time, had a whole different take on stay with what comes ...

 

[Bino TWT]

Lat Sao Jik Chung/free hand goes forward

 

[karatejj]

Good info on this thread, thanx guys

 

[Yeung]

This saying: "Loi Lau Hoi Song, Lat Sau, Jik Chong" could be translated in many ways. I belive the most direct translation could be:

"Come Receive Leave Eject, Free Hand, Straight Rush."

Does this phrase have any deeper meaning in terms of your Wing Chun? How does it apply in your sparring and combat strategies?

It is kind of unique with the ability of sticking to a incoming strike like a boxing jab for example. The strategy is a straight line defensive technique to generate maximum contact time with the incoming jab in this case and make use of lap sau. When the opponent pull back to get away one can follow with a short range strike or kick if he or she step back.

 

[Eric_H]

No surprise, HFY's viewpoint is a little different. One of the ideas in HFY Siu Nim Tao is to stick to your hung jong/original position without backing off. The technology that allows us to stay there without backing off is loi lau - being able to absorb or shear off what comes.

When there is a structural or spacial distortion, we look to eat up that space (Biu Jong Body). The pressure of checking the opponent's structure through forward energy is "Hoi Sung."

Additionally, It's a saying in our line that "only one thing can occupy one space at one time" and we look for that to be us. Moving in to occupy that space/take over that leverage can be seen as "Lut Sao Jik Chung."

 

[wayfaring]

Yo E what up? To me, "Receive what comes, escort what goes". From an energy perspective. But has a lot of applications.

But maybe I need to run it through Google translate to Mandarin, then to Cantonese, then to Babelfish to route it back to English so I can have a more detailed understanding of it.



Lol.

 

[wayfaring]

Sorry just laughing at a lot of the literal attempts to get at understanding. Nothing wrong with that LOL. I do think it helps to have someone teach it to you in the context of transmitting wing chun understanding.

As Eric describes we have a very specific understanding of this in an application sense, even from a basic pak sau. This phrase describes connecting the energy circuit completely, from absorbing energy without the need to run away from the centerline, to our unique cycling and the HFY box theory, to returning to sender back to opponent's center.

Can anyone else describe a detailed understanding of this from your perspective?