Locks in TSD: whether, when and how you teach/learn them...?

[exile]

I'm curious to know what kind of exposure TSDists on this board have to locking techniques as components of their TSD training. I'm not thinking so much of whether you teach/learn a bit of Hapkido, and its locks, say, along with your TSD (a fair number of instructors have experience in both), but whether you teach, or learn, locks as part of your instruction specifically in TSD—wrist locks like the Z-lock, say, or elbow locks as part of the application of retraction 'chambering' moves. Do you teach/learn them separately, or as parts of hyung application... that sort of thing.

I've posted a near duplicate of this OP in the TKD forum as well, partly because I'm interested in possible differences in syllabus and teaching methodology between these two closely related KMAs...

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

We learn them as part of ho sin sul...generally not along with hyung, which is a shame, but, at least at cho dan level and above, we do learn how the two are connected.

I, for one, always try to keep in mind how many different ways one move can be interpreted, which is something my sa bom nim always reminds me when I'm learning a hyung. If I think it would help a gup level student understand how to do a move properly (i.e., if they are old enough and attentive enough that I think it'd stay between their ears), I'll typically impart that bit of knowledge, of course. Helps when you get to dan level, where you have to know a lot more and look a lot more in depth at techniques, after you've had four or five years of learning how to move.

 

[SamT]

I think that under our organisations, 7th gup and up self defense is mostly joint locks. I'm a 10th gup and have learned three already, focusing on the wrist.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

For Us, Ho Sin Sul is more focused to escape from locks than doing the locks themselves. It does have locks, but the focus is escaping them.
For example, if an opponent locks around your neck, one basic HSS technique is how to defeat the lock and counter, rendering the agressor vulnerable to any hand or elbow strike, defeating him.
Most of the techniques used in Ho Sin Sul are to defeat the agressor and (possibly) causing serious damage (elbow, knee, Soo Do, etc. strikes after defeating lock, AKA finishing).

On the other hand, one step sparring uses locks on several techniques, and most of them try to defeat the enemy without causing damage. You can have an agressor laying defenseless on the floor with a hand or arm lock. You can cause serious injury if you want, but the purpose is to not do it.

As far as hyungs is concerned, some fo them have locks, some have lock counter, but they are very easy to be confused with any other technique or strike.
For example, 4th step of Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, is to defeat a hand lock, the counter with a reverse punch.
Sip Soo has 3 steps which we teach as arm lock and elbow breaking. (You hold the wrist of attacker and with you open hand (soo do style) you strike the elbow.
however, I have seen some videos where these strikes appear to be something very different.

So, Ho Sin Sul does have locks. One step has locks and hyungs have locks. With combination them and more, you will have a good locks repertory.

 

[MBuzzy]

As others have said, we do quite a bit of joint locking as a standardized part of our Hosinsul. Each one of the techniques involves some type of wrist, elbow, shoulder lock, etc. Very little in ground locks, but we get pretty far in depth on wrist and arm techniques (at least 4 per each type of attack).

As far as hyung application, it depends a lot on the instructor. If it is a particularly odd movement in the hyung (such as in joong jul (yuk ro ee dan), the lock will generally be explained in detail. We get a bit of hyung application in terms of locking as a part of Dan class as well. That is not a standardized part of our normal curriculum though.

 

[MBuzzy]

For Us, Ho Sin Sul is more focused to escape from locks than doing the locks themselves. It does have locks, but the focus is escaping them.
For example, if an opponent locks around your neck, one basic HSS technique is how to defeat the lock and counter, rendering the agressor vulnerable to any hand or elbow strike, defeating him.
Most of the techniques used in Ho Sin Sul are to defeat the agressor and (possibly) causing serious damage (elbow, knee, Soo Do, etc. strikes after defeating lock, AKA finishing).

I would love to see some of your hosinsul.

So as a part of your hosinsul, do the "escape" techniques involve countering the lock and applying a joint lock or defeating the opponent through striking?

 

[Montecarlodrag]

do the "escape" techniques involve countering the lock and applying a joint lock or defeating the opponent through striking?

Both.

For the Ho Sin Sul to be effective, you MUST finish with either a lock or a strike. There is no sense in escaping and doing nothing. You should use the element of surprise to counter attack.

The agressor thinks he is going to defeat you. The brief moment you use to counter and escape leaves him confused, and you strike back before he recovers. When he realizes he is now on the ground or with a kick on the face

 

[exile]

Both.

For the Ho Sin Sul to be effective, you MUST finish with either a lock or a strike. There is no sense in escaping and doing nothing. You should use the element of surprise to counter attack.

The agressor thinks he is going to defeat you. The brief moment you use to counter and escape leaves him confused, and you strike back before he recovers. When he realizes he is now on the ground or with a kick on the face

My own take on this is similar, though maybe the details are different.

The way I've learned, and try to teach, TKD is primarily a striking art; strikes are the weapons of choice for ending a violent physical encounter on the defender's terms. The trick, always, is setting up the situation so that a possibly terminating strike—and if necessary, followup strikes—can be delivered as needed, in a way that the attacker cannot do anything to deflect or avoid. 'Forced mate' situations, in other words. And locks, imposed on the attacker (often by reversal of his grabs and attempted controlling moves) are a crucial part of creating those situations. We're not Hapkido or some other art in which the controlling moves themselves terminate the fight; our strategy relies on traumatic impacts, delivered close up, to do that. The virtue of locks, pins, bars and other controlling moves from this strategic angle is that they bring the best targets—the attacker's head and neck—safely into range of our most damaging strikes. Just as an experienced pool player recognizes the value of 'running the table', so that the opponent literally never gets a chance to play, the preferred strategy I've learned is to have one forcing move lead to another, without letup, till the attacker is on the ground. Locks are a valuable tactic in this approach—gain control, get outside, close the distance, strike repeatedly to critical targets.

It's not WTF TKD, , but I think it probably has a good deal in common with TSD, its half-brother...

 

[Makalakumu]

I teach tuite right alongside striking, throwing, pressure points, and falling. I consider it a basic skill that all my students should be familiar with, similar with throwing a punch.