Live Blade Training

[BigPug]

A friend of mine was talking to an instructor at a school near me, and the instructor told him they do a lot of live blade training, showing him a bunch of scars on the hand and forearm. Has anyone had experience with this?

My first thought was this is a gimmick. I understand using a live blade to stimulate a little adrenaline during drills, but how much more can you really do without risking the loss of training time?

Let me know if I'm missing out on something...

 

[kaliace]

Greetings,



It is a genuine way to train. I have met several people that grew up training that way. I myself was tested with a live blade. It really does put it in a new level, but it is super dangerous. At one point I was losing my stamina with the drill, and the blade touched my arm. Wow!



I would not recommend this unless you and your partner and very experienced with all of the techniques used.



Always remember when you “play” with the blade, someone will get cut.



Michael G Olive

 

[Andrew Evans]

I've heard that live blade training adds realism. I prefer live blade training for solo drills. If I mess up, I'll get a nick or two.

I don't care for it during training with others because somebody will get cut in a realistic situation and it won't be a mere nick.

 

[loki09789]

I have heard this type of practice before. Some only go so far as to tape a real blade so that the balance and feel of the weapon is real (though the tape may make it slightly different) while others train with live blades at very slow tempos and use the blade awareness and stress as a pace control technique (suddenly rushing through a technique isn't as tempting ).

I remember when I was teaching a group of students the first class for the empty hand vs. knife sets that I was using and a few were turning gray and getting whoozy with me demonstrating and explaining some of the damage with only an aluminium training blade. I think the point is really that students need to be reminded of the realism and consequences of training - it isn't just 'cool'.

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi there:

I've done this type of training before. However, the person feeding the drill, if possible, puts their finger in between the blade and the flesh of the receiver. That was you know when you've been hit, control is established on both sides, and the chances of a sliced vein or artery is significantly reduced. That being said, we only do this with each other if:

a. Trust has been established before.
b. Confidence is high that control will be exercised on both sides of the equation. No sudden flails or jumpy movements.
c. Techniques are first practiced with trainers.

All in all it does give me a keen sense of what the blade can do if it gets in contact with my flesh and definitely kicks my shifting and movement up a notch.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Cruentus]

Training with live blades for partner work is not only unnecissary, stupid, and dangerous, but it is an inferior way to train.

Here is my take on live blade training from another thread:


A couple of notes though:

#1 Its completely unessicary to use your live blade for partner work. We've all tried it, and I think most will back me up on this, that training partner drills with a live weapon is stupid and dangerous. And... It actually hinders your training because your partner will be hesitent in coming at you with committed attacks with a live blade. Your trainer is for your partner work...that's why you bought it.

#2 DO TRAIN with your live blade, however, but solo work. Do train your drawing and cutting targets with your live blade, so you know what it feels like to draw and cut. There is nothing that will replace the feel of a live weapon.

#3 Having said #2, your trainer doesn't have to resemble your fixed blade exactly. For example, some of the guys I have been training carry the Cold Steel Recan Tanto, and they have the trainer that exactly replicates the Tanto. THis is good but not completely nessicary. Now you want your trainer to resemble your live blade for sure; in other words if I carry a 2 1/2 inch blade, I don't want to do all my training with a 12 inch blade. But, If I have a small aluminum trainer that is around the same length as my folder, then I am in good shape. The reason is because I am practicing my drawing and cutting with my live blade....so If I am attacked, my drawing and cutting will be there, and my partner work will fall right into place. I know some might disagree with me here, so I hope I am making sense.

Train, be safe, and have fun!


Anyways, anyone who is showing you their scars to brag about their "live blade work" is a moron. I'd steer clear from them.

PAUL

 

[MJS]

Yeah, it'll definately give you a different feeling, but like Paul said, your partner might not be as committed with a real knife as he would with a training blade. In addition, the same intent isnt going to be there. I'd get a training blade and apply lipsitck or something that is gonna leave a mark, and train with that. Its better than training with a wooden knife, where you wont be able to tell if you got 'cut' or not, but at the same time, its much safer, and you will be able to see the 'cuts'

Mike

 

[Emptyglass]

Training with live blades for partner work is not only unnecissary, stupid, and dangerous, but it is an inferior way to train.

Paul:

<shrug>YMMV. Your mileage (and opinions) may vary. From the receiver side, I've experienced no hesitation on the part of the attacker as the feeder is controlling the drill and as you said, hesitation would retard the progress on both sides.

Rich Curren

 

[MJS]

Paul:

<shrug>YMMV. Your mileage (and opinions) may vary. From the receiver side, I've experienced no hesitation on the part of the attacker as the feeder is controlling the drill and as you said, hesitation would retard the progress on both sides.

Rich Curren

So with a real blade, you're saying that you're going to have the same intent as you would with a training blade, and really try to stab, cut, slash, etc, your partner??? Your partener is going to have that same mentality as a mugger on the street who really wants to cut you??

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Paul:

<shrug>YMMV. Your mileage (and opinions) may vary.

Rich Curren

True...I don't mean to slam anyone, either; I've done the live blade thing myself...those are just my opinions on it. :asian:

 

[MJS]

Hi there:

I've done this type of training before. However, the person feeding the drill, if possible, puts their finger in between the blade and the flesh of the receiver. That was you know when you've been hit, control is established on both sides, and the chances of a sliced vein or artery is significantly reduced. That being said, we only do this with each other if:

a. Trust has been established before.
b. Confidence is high that control will be exercised on both sides of the equation. No sudden flails or jumpy movements.
c. Techniques are first practiced with trainers.

All in all it does give me a keen sense of what the blade can do if it gets in contact with my flesh and definitely kicks my shifting and movement up a notch.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

Just want to make sure I'm reading this right. Are you saying that your partner actually grabs the blade??? I'm assuming that you're still talking about a live blade here? And if thats the case, someone is still getting cut.

Mike

 

[Emptyglass]

So with a real blade, you're saying that you're going to have the same intent as you would with a training blade, and really try to stab, cut, slash, etc, your partner??? Your partener is going to have that same mentality as a mugger on the street who really wants to cut you??

Mike

Hi Mike:

No. I think you missed the part where I said we use trainers. I also simply said I have done this sort of thing before and never said it was a consistent process. I think it was done more as a control exercise and under specific drill conditions. In truth, in my mind, there is no knife defense and there is certainly no such thing as a knife fight. There is simply attempting to maximize your chances against the knife in order to survive with your life intact.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Cruentus]

In truth, in my mind, there is no knife defense and there is certainly no such thing as a knife fight. There is simply attempting to maximize your chances against the knife in order to survive with your life intact.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

I agree with you there.

 

[Emptyglass]

Just want to make sure I'm reading this right. Are you saying that your partner actually grabs the blade??? I'm assuming that you're still talking about a live blade here? And if thats the case, someone is still getting cut.

Mike

Hi Mike:

No, I never said he grabbed it. I said he placed his finger in front of it (it was a rather short folder). Control is exercised on both sides. In any case, as I said, I (as others have admitted) have tried it. I never said, or even alluded to the idea that this was a consistent practice. I merely stated that it does give you a different feel for what you are doing and certainly gives you more concentration for not making a mistake. That's all. I'm not endorsing anything here (or saying that I would or would not do this again), simply stating my own experiences.

Truth be told, an untrained criminal with a shank is probably a much more effective attacker than a trained martial artist simply because their intention and disregard for the consequences (the maiming/killing of another human being) is not paramount in their mind. You can only try to make your chances better through a variety of methods. I tried this one. Hopefully I will never have to find out whether it helped or not at any time in the future.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike:

No. I think you missed the part where I said we use trainers. I also simply said I have done this sort of thing before and never said it was a consistent process. I think it was done more as a control exercise and under specific drill conditions. In truth, in my mind, there is no knife defense and there is certainly no such thing as a knife fight. There is simply attempting to maximize your chances against the knife in order to survive with your life intact.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

Rich- Thanks for the reply! Yes, I missed that part. Now, going on what you said about knife defenses, in your opinion, what do you think the best way to defend against a knife is?? There was actually an interesting debate on this on the Kenpo Net. Just looking for your thoughts.

Mike

Mike

 

[Emptyglass]

Rich- Thanks for the reply! Yes, I missed that part. Now, going on what you said about knife defenses, in your opinion, what do you think the best way to defend against a knife is?? There was actually an interesting debate on this on the Kenpo Net. Just looking for your thoughts.

Mike

Mike

Mike:

The very best way?: Don't get yourself caught in a situation where one is able to be drawn on you.

Second best way: Run like hell. I'd rather be alive than dead but with an epitaph "He was brave but stupid".

Third best way: Use every possible means at your disposal to escape the situation with your life intact. This includes conflict of various sorts. That being said, in my mind, the blade is so under respected by many people (until they are cut seriously) that most knife defense is a lot of theory. Many people that will attack with a knife aren't going to be trained and they aren't going to stop when you call time. They are going to be an aggressive animal that wants to jab a sharp piece of metal into your body. That's serious. TV and movies reinforce this with bloodless knife/sword fights. Hellboy comes to mind recently. You get cut/stabbed, the blood will flow, gush, spurt and spray. Watch some video of a slaughter house some time (or pay one a visit for the full stink/sight/sound) to see what real cuts look like on a living creature under stress.

Also, I belive in the theories stated in Col. Grossman's book - On Killing. I'm not quoting here though. The closer one gets to the recipient of a violent act the more difficult it is for the aggressor to carry the act out. The loss of distance between the killer and victim breeds a natural discomfort between humans. Those who can overcome that natural aversion to plunge steel into someone's vitals, be covered in their hot blood from a major vessel and see their last gasp, rattle and breath with no problem (if they are not engaged in the defense of their own life or that of another which is another situation entirely) are a bit psychopathic in my mind and best avoided.

When I was an EMT in Western New York, I had the opportunity to witness the results of knife attacks in the ER and in the morgue. Later for that sir.

In a technical sense, I believe that if possible you should get something in-between you and the point/edge if possible. Garbage can lid, rolled up magazine, shirt off your back, piece of wood, belt, distance, something to keep metal off flesh. Then, fight like your life depended on it, because it does. Someone drawing a knife on you is attempting to kill you in my opinion. They can even do it by accident. They might not have meant to kill you but you'll still be just as dead. The chances of you ending up with a toe tag are just too stacked in their favor.

That was a bit rambling but did it make sense?

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike:

No, I never said he grabbed it. I said he placed his finger in front of it (it was a rather short folder). Control is exercised on both sides. In any case, as I said, I (as others have admitted) have tried it. I never said, or even alluded to the idea that this was a consistent practice. I merely stated that it does give you a different feel for what you are doing and certainly gives you more concentration for not making a mistake. That's all. I'm not endorsing anything here (or saying that I would or would not do this again), simply stating my own experiences.

Truth be told, an untrained criminal with a shank is probably a much more effective attacker than a trained martial artist simply because their intention and disregard for the consequences (the maiming/killing of another human being) is not paramount in their mind. You can only try to make your chances better through a variety of methods. I tried this one. Hopefully I will never have to find out whether it helped or not at any time in the future.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

Thanks for the clarification!

Mike

 

[Emptyglass]

Thanks for the clarification!

Mike

No problem. I'm interested to hear what you think of my last post.

Rich Curren

 

[Cruentus]

No problem. I'm interested to hear what you think of my last post.

Rich Curren

All good thoughts, IMHO!

 

[MJS]

Mike:

The very best way?: Don't get yourself caught in a situation where one is able to be drawn on you.

Well, thats not always easy to do.

Second best way: Run like hell. I'd rather be alive than dead but with an epitaph "He was brave but stupid".

I agree with that! Getting out of there is definately a good choice.

Third best way: Use every possible means at your disposal to escape the situation with your life intact. This includes conflict of various sorts. That being said, in my mind, the blade is so under respected by many people (until they are cut seriously) that most knife defense is a lot of theory. Many people that will attack with a knife aren't going to be trained and they aren't going to stop when you call time. They are going to be an aggressive animal that wants to jab a sharp piece of metal into your body. That's serious. TV and movies reinforce this with bloodless knife/sword fights. Hellboy comes to mind recently. You get cut/stabbed, the blood will flow, gush, spurt and spray. Watch some video of a slaughter house some time (or pay one a visit for the full stink/sight/sound) to see what real cuts look like on a living creature under stress.

Another good point. I think that alot of the disarms taught today are fine for the dojo, but doing them in the street would most likely get you killed. IMO, if you're faced with no other choice, then I'd want to gain control of the weapon, and then begin a counter strike.

Also, I belive in the theories stated in Col. Grossman's book - On Killing. I'm not quoting here though. The closer one gets to the recipient of a violent act the more difficult it is for the aggressor to carry the act out. The loss of distance between the killer and victim breeds a natural discomfort between humans. Those who can overcome that natural aversion to plunge steel into someone's vitals, be covered in their hot blood from a major vessel and see their last gasp, rattle and breath with no problem (if they are not engaged in the defense of their own life or that of another which is another situation entirely) are a bit psychopathic in my mind and best avoided.

Agreed!

When I was an EMT in Western New York, I had the opportunity to witness the results of knife attacks in the ER and in the morgue. Later for that sir.

Very umpleasant viewing I'm sure.

In a technical sense, I believe that if possible you should get something in-between you and the point/edge if possible. Garbage can lid, rolled up magazine, shirt off your back, piece of wood, belt, distance, something to keep metal off flesh. Then, fight like your life depended on it, because it does. Someone drawing a knife on you is attempting to kill you in my opinion. They can even do it by accident. They might not have meant to kill you but you'll still be just as dead. The chances of you ending up with a toe tag are just too stacked in their favor.

Agree 100%. If faced with a weapon, I feel that its important to pick up an equalizer. Why fight empty handed if you dont have to?

That was a bit rambling but did it make sense?

Yes it did! Thank you!

Mike