Listing Your Instructors

Bill Mattocks

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Found it interesting how many people list their 'instructors' including people from whom they have taken a seminar or briefly attended training with.

From my point of view, my 'instructors' are those people who, if asked, know my name and would say that yes, I was or am a student of theirs.

As such, I can only list one martial arts instructor, along with perhaps the two senior sensei who teach for him. I would not list the sensei whom I trained with for a month whilst on vacation in another state, nor the sensei with whom I took a seminar last summer, even though they did contribute to my understanding of my art and helped me very much. I would not, for example, list Angi Uezo Sensei, even though I worked with him in Okinawa when I was in the Marines; he was a security guard and I was an MP on the same base; we knew each other, but I never set foot in his dojo, nor was I his student in any sense.

Is it then legitimate to list everyone with whom you've received any kind of martial arts training as your 'instructor', or is this just puffery?
 

Carol

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I think its puffery. I have taken seminars from people I have come to think very highly of, but I would never list them as my "instructor", unless I asked them to take me on as their student.
 

MJS

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Found it interesting how many people list their 'instructors' including people from whom they have taken a seminar or briefly attended training with.

From my point of view, my 'instructors' are those people who, if asked, know my name and would say that yes, I was or am a student of theirs.

As such, I can only list one martial arts instructor, along with perhaps the two senior sensei who teach for him. I would not list the sensei whom I trained with for a month whilst on vacation in another state, nor the sensei with whom I took a seminar last summer, even though they did contribute to my understanding of my art and helped me very much. I would not, for example, list Angi Uezo Sensei, even though I worked with him in Okinawa when I was in the Marines; he was a security guard and I was an MP on the same base; we knew each other, but I never set foot in his dojo, nor was I his student in any sense.

Is it then legitimate to list everyone with whom you've received any kind of martial arts training as your 'instructor', or is this just puffery?

IMHO, its puffery. There's a big difference between someone who you train with on a regular basis and someone you trained with at a seminar or camp. I've trained with Royce Gracie, but I dont consider him my teacher nor do I consider myself his student.

Someone who brags about this person or that person, or who has all their 'certificates of participation' hanging on the wall, is giving people a false impression, especially if they're making the claim that they are students.

The people I list in my profile are my teachers, people that I actively train with. I do not nor would I ever, list someone who I attended a seminar with. Those people are not my teachers.
 

Jenna

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I think is a game of semantic to do this? Instructor is one who instructs, yet to claim ownership: "my instructor" implies a certain relationship, no?

I do not know that it matters. My shihan, Shihan Kermit listed Takeda Sokaku among his illustrious instructors. Some insist that frogs were excluded from Daito Ryu practice until the 1970s which makes such an instructor relationship impossible. Nevertheless, whether I trust Shihan Kermit or wonder if he is embellishing the truth beyond what is reasonable is not the issue. For me, knowing my Bladed Weapons Handling certificate from Shihan Kermit is valid where it matters -on the street- is good enough.

Caveat emptor I guess.
 
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Bill Mattocks

Bill Mattocks

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I do not nor would I ever, list someone who I attended a seminar with. Those people are not my teachers.

I suppose I might say parenthetically that I "attended a seminar" taught by so-and-so, but I'd make certain that I was not insinuating that there was an ongoing instructor/student relationship.
 

dancingalone

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It is resume padding and sketchy behavior in my opinion. Unfortunately some famous teachers encourage it to an extent, and sometimes they even go so far as to offer higher dan recognition to people that will join their organizations.
 

mook jong man

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It's like people I have seen who show up right at the end of a seminar just to get their picture taken with the instructor.
 

harlan

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Without the qualifiers ('attended seminars w/'), it's false advertising at best.

Found it interesting how many people list their 'instructors' including people from whom they have taken a seminar or briefly attended training with.

From my point of view, my 'instructors' are those people who, if asked, know my name and would say that yes, I was or am a student of theirs.

As such, I can only list one martial arts instructor, along with perhaps the two senior sensei who teach for him. I would not list the sensei whom I trained with for a month whilst on vacation in another state, nor the sensei with whom I took a seminar last summer, even though they did contribute to my understanding of my art and helped me very much. I would not, for example, list Angi Uezo Sensei, even though I worked with him in Okinawa when I was in the Marines; he was a security guard and I was an MP on the same base; we knew each other, but I never set foot in his dojo, nor was I his student in any sense.

Is it then legitimate to list everyone with whom you've received any kind of martial arts training as your 'instructor', or is this just puffery?
 
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Bill Mattocks

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It's like people I have seen who show up right at the end of a seminar just to get their picture taken with the instructor.

People do that? Ewww... I don't even get my picture taken with instructors to be quite honest. I mean, if there is a group photo taken, sure, great, but I never liked the 'grip and grin' photo. What's it supposed to mean?
 
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Bill Mattocks

Bill Mattocks

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People do that? Ewww... I don't even get my picture taken with instructors to be quite honest. I mean, if there is a group photo taken, sure, great, but I never liked the 'grip and grin' photo. What's it supposed to mean?

Correction: Except with Red Green. I did stand in line to get my grip and grin photo with him. But he's RED GREEN!
 

punisher73

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I suppose I might say parenthetically that I "attended a seminar" taught by so-and-so, but I'd make certain that I was not insinuating that there was an ongoing instructor/student relationship.

I think that is the key. Did you recieve earned rank from that person and was there a personal relationship with them (they knew your name and you knew theres and worked one on one in a teacher/student relationship for a duration of time)?

Lets say that you trained with someone a short time (like in the military or had to move for a job, etc.) on a consistant basis. I don't think it is wrong to list them, but also list what the relationship was. For example, let's say that you did train with Master Ueza while in Okinawa for 6 months as a student in his dojo. Especially, now that you are a student of IR, I think that the training is relevant to your current study. But, if I was doing a "bio" or something like that, I would phrase it something like "I had the privelage to study with Master Ueza for 6 months while stationed in Okinawa and learned X from him or earned X belt from him." That way people know the extent of the training and what the relationship was instead of just name dropping to look more impressive.
 

Buka

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Puffery is a great word!

There are some semantics involved here, though. I've been teaching a long time. There are students from the past that only know me as their instructor, but some of them only trained two or three years. Even if they came to class four nights a week, you forget some of them from, say, the seventies. Sometimes people I know will come up to me and say, "I ran into an old student of yours, Joe SoAndSo, but I won't remember the last name at all. (because I usually just taught and had someone else do the books.) Then they'll show me an old photo of them from that time and I'll say, "Of course, young Joey, great kid!"
I remember all of the Black Belts under me from the past, and pretty much all of the browns, but lower belts, not so much if at all. They come, they go, you know how it is.

I've been fortunate in my life to train under a lot of different people. Some I consider my main Instructors, and many others whom I consider my Instructors every bit as much, yet I'll only see them maybe once or twice a year. (but it's for a lot of years) I consider some of these people my instructors because they've had a huge influence on what I've learned and on what I teach, both to my students, and to Law Enforcement Officers in DT. Some of them have created changes in some of the basic principles that I teach, because they showed me a better way to teach them.

Case in point particular to this discussion-
Over the last couple years I've been going to a yearly seminar with Bob Campbell of Ueichi Ryu. I'm invited as a guest because I'm an old fart that's been around almost as long as he has. I first took a class with him thirty of forty years ago, but didn't see him for a long time. Bob, among other things, is a DT Instructor for the Hong Kong Police. Every year he shares some things with me that I did not know, in fact a couple years ago he showed me something I had never seen before. It blew my mind. I worked it for six months or so and shared it with some other DT Instructors I know. I don't know if fits with any program they're doing, and I really don't care, it was just a sweet technique and a lot of fun to use and practice. Last year we went over it again, and over some other things. Next year we'll do it again. I'll only train with Sensei Campbell once a year when he visits from Hong Kong, but I now consider him one of "my instructors".

I call people my "Instructor" as a matter of utmost respect for what they have done, and what they are doing, for my Martial life.
 

mook jong man

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People do that? Ewww... I don't even get my picture taken with instructors to be quite honest. I mean, if there is a group photo taken, sure, great, but I never liked the 'grip and grin' photo. What's it supposed to mean?

Yeah , so that they can use it later on to say look how good I am , I trained with ( insert famous name instructor here ).
They think it might give them a bit more credibility in attracting potential students I suppose.
 

Flying Crane

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I see this kind of thing on websites, where people are listing their credentials. They list every single seminar they ever attended, especially when there was someone famous involved.

The other thing I find sort of amusing is, sometimes buried in the list of "accomplishments": black belt in THIS, THAT, and THE OTHER THING, and the shopping list of seminars, will be something like: "yellow belt in tae kwon do" and "orange belt in judo". Hey, let's just throw in the kitchen sink, how about.

I don't like the seminar resume padding bit. I personally am not a big fan of seminars, tho I know a lot of people like them. I feel that it is difficult to learn something solid in such a short period of time, without an ongoing relationship with the instructor. I just find myself doubtful of the long-term benefits that one might get from attending a seminar. They can be great to get a taste of something different, just to see how a different method or teacher does things, but I have doubts about them otherwise. So when I see a resume padded with a long list of seminars, I just sort of tune out. What impresses me more is a long teacher/student relationship with a very solid teacher.
 

punisher73

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People do that? Ewww... I don't even get my picture taken with instructors to be quite honest. I mean, if there is a group photo taken, sure, great, but I never liked the 'grip and grin' photo. What's it supposed to mean?

I don't know on that one. If it was an instructor that I highly respected and had the chance to meet them I might. For example, if I got to meet Shinyu Gushi or Morio Higaonna I would definately get my picture taken.
 

punisher73

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I see this kind of thing on websites, where people are listing their credentials. They list every single seminar they ever attended, especially when there was someone famous involved.

The other thing I find sort of amusing is, sometimes buried in the list of "accomplishments": black belt in THIS, THAT, and THE OTHER THING, and the shopping list of seminars, will be something like: "yellow belt in tae kwon do" and "orange belt in judo". Hey, let's just throw in the kitchen sink, how about.

I don't like the seminar resume padding bit. I personally am not a big fan of seminars, tho I know a lot of people like them. I feel that it is difficult to learn something solid in such a short period of time, without an ongoing relationship with the instructor. I just find myself doubtful of the long-term benefits that one might get from attending a seminar. They can be great to get a taste of something different, just to see how a different method or teacher does things, but I have doubts about them otherwise. So when I see a resume padded with a long list of seminars, I just sort of tune out. What impresses me more is a long teacher/student relationship with a very solid teacher.

Seminars are great for your base art to work on a specific topic. Otherwise, like you said it is nice to get a flavor for that style/instructor. Many years ago, I had a student that was a white belt that couldn't do anything we worked on in class, but every time you tried to talk about a technique he had to talk about how he was at such and such a seminar and this is how they did it. Even those he couldn't actually get to work, he could just tell you about it, some people just like to collect techniques and katas.
 

jks9199

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I have my teachers. I have trained with and under them for more than 2 decades. I've broken bread with them, they've evaluated my students... They're my "go to." And they claim me as a student.

I have other people whom I have trained specific things under. So, if you ask where I learned that -- I'll say that person taught it to me. For example, I've studied the Boar System under the guidance of the designated Boar Master of the ABA.

There are also some certifications I have; when and if appropriate, I'd include that and the certifying agency or body. For example, I am a certified DT and Firearms Instructor through Virginia DCJS, and I am certified to teach a specific level of the Krav Maga World Wide Force Training program.

I've had the chance to train with some greats in Isshin-ryu, too. But the only way I'd list that is along the lines of "hey, I trained with Tom Lewis at... He was great" as it came up through discussion. (You can see that in some threads around here.)

People who try to puff out their resumes by throwing every "Name" they can on their list of teachers are simply inflating their resume.
 

Flying Crane

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Seminars are great for your base art to work on a specific topic. Otherwise, like you said it is nice to get a flavor for that style/instructor. Many years ago, I had a student that was a white belt that couldn't do anything we worked on in class, but every time you tried to talk about a technique he had to talk about how he was at such and such a seminar and this is how they did it. Even those he couldn't actually get to work, he could just tell you about it, some people just like to collect techniques and katas.

exactly. And even when the seminar is within the same system, but with a different instructor or lineage, things are done differently. OK, so which way are you gonna do it? It can lead to confusion, particularly for a beginner/intermediate student who isn't yet experienced enough to adequately sift thru the differences and make intelligent decisions about them. And if you still have YOUR instructor, I'd say you ought to be doing it the way HE tells you to. Otherwise, why is he your instructor at all?
 

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