Let's talk power

[Zeny]

My debate thread is losing steam, so i'm going to start a new one. I hope the previous thread has entertained many, and for those who got some new info out of it, that's good too.

For this thread, since i'm the OP, i set the rules. The main aim of this thread is entertainment. You cannot, i repeat, cannot learn martial art from reading a forum. With that said, let's move on.

All chinese martial art is about power, taijiquan included. You train a CMA to become stronger, not weaker. But taijiquan is not about push ups or strength training. It asks you to relax. The form looks tame and not 'powerful' looking. It asks you to use 4 ounces to defeat a thousand pounds.

So you ask, where is the power? But taijiquan is ALL about power. It asks you to use 4 ounces to defeat a thousand pounds, but it did not say that 4 ounces is the only power you have. In truth and in fact, from taijiquan training you will probably have five thousand pounds of power (not literally, but you get what i mean), but you only need 4 ounces to defeat your opponent. The old saying that your arms become like steel wrapped in cotton, is absolutely true.

Recently an ex student returned to class asking to test some push hands. Since leaving the class a couple years ago he went to practise some competitive push hands elsewhere. When i observe him i notice absolutely no power. When we push with him he tried to fajin by pushing with his back leg. You must have jin in order to fajin. If you have no jin, how do you release jin? With this ex student i only need 4 ounces to defeat him. Some feelings may be hurt and it would not have been polite to slam him with five thousand pounds of power.

When facing a taijiquan master the opponent feels like everywhere he touches is empty, and the person in front of him is so harmless looking, but is so stable like a mountain, and when power is generated by him, it feels like a huge wave that cannot be resisted.

Anyone experience that before?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Okinawan karate has similar precepts. I don't know how similar they are, but here's what I can offer:

'Muchimi' comes from the root word 'muchi' which means soft, resilient, supple. Think of bamboo. Muchimi is hard power contained within softness. For example, (Bruce Lee famously said this, but it's older than that), waves are hard power, concealed in softness. Waves crash with immense power, but before they crash, they are soft.

'Shishee' means power that comes from the hips, waist, and breath, all coming together to focus on a single point at a single instant in time. It also refers to posture and attitude, but basically it means coordinated power generated from all aspects of your being. Not to get all mystical, but 'chi' or 'ki' might fit well in here...

'Chinkunchi' refers to combined power of muscle, bone, and tendons, all together. Birds do not fly only because they have strong muscles in their wings, but because every aspect of their bodies combine to permit flight and endurance. Bones are hollow, tendons flex and stretch. Muscles contract. Bird flies.

One of the first things I find I have to overcome when instructing a new student (keep in mind that I am a student as well, not a master; I teach under supervision), is the notion that power comes from strong muscles. Muscles don't hurt, but that's not really where the power comes from. Relaxation is the key to Okinawan karate. Our power doesn't typically come like a bullet being shot out of a gun, but more as the end of a long cracked whip. It moves, coils, relaxes, and then all the power is released at once at the intended location.

I'm not an expert, this is just what I have learned.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will only say this and not return to this thread. I find it interesting that your other thread you started talking about limp, loose guitar string, and couches to discribe how power in push hands works and how to train it. And now you are using words like "steel wrapped in cotton". You appear to have reversed your thoughts on the topic.

Another thing I find rather interesting is that in another thread you said you did not agree with me on much, yet in this one you are using many of my words and thoughts on the topic, for example "steel wrapped in cotton".... interesting..... but not interesting enough for me to continue posting here. I have no desire to teach online either, but based on your previous posts and now this one...apparently I have been.

I leave you to your post and your rules

 

[Zeny]

I talk about lightness i get blasted i talk about power i get blasted, life is very difficult.

Steel wrapped in cotton is a yang cheng fu saying i believe. I am not copying your words or your thoughts.

If there is any inconsistency or reversal on what i say, please do point out. My limb noodle pillow arms are exactly my way of achieving steel wrapped in cotton and generating power, when i want to. In fact the softer i can make it the better is my jin. Just because you believe limb noodle pillow arms cannot generate power does not mean i am inconsistent.

I mean, lighten up! We don't even know each other, no need to get personal.

I know it probably seems like i need a serious lesson in humility but if i'm all humble and quiet, there wouldn't be much debate or discussion and where is the fun in that.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's actually more about highly efficient use of the strength of the whole body connected, not just arms for example when punching.

 

[oaktree]

I personally don't care about power or speed. Good timing and deceptive means are better means to defeating an opponent.

 

[Zeny]

Highly efficient use of whole body strength is one (important) thing. For me efficiency means if your body is activated or moved in a certain manner, you can generate a large amount of power. But what i'm driving at is if your body is activated or moved in the same manner, the (large) power generated is even larger, i.e. the 'upper limit' or 'maximum capability' is increased. Not only that, the 'lower limit' is increased at the same time.

Oaktree, do you do anything to train power? Speed comes from relaxation, so it need not be specifically trained.

 

[oaktree]

One of my teacher said hit a tree if you can hit a tree hard you can hit a man even more harder. Silk reeling will generate power

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But taijiquan is not about push ups or strength training.

Here is an issue. There are some strength that we don't have when we were born. Also we don't use this strength in our daily activities. In order to develop this strength, we have to start to develop it from ground 0. Please notice that no solo form training will be able to develop this strength either.

A simple example is to be able to use your leg to lift up your opponent's body to be off the ground and then throw him over your head.

If Taiji is not about "strength training" ->Taiji people will have no desire to train this power -> Taiji people will never be able to include this as fighting skill

IMO, this kind of "self restriction" is not necessary.

 

[oaktree]

A simple example is to be able to use your leg to lift up your opponent's body to be off the ground and then throw him over your head.

Would you develop that by doing squats with weights or over head presses?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would you develop that by doing squats with weights or over head presses?

This training is better. But since this training only involves with "lower leg", it does not involve with body, waist, and upper leg, it's still not the best training for it.