Let's debate lightness

[Xue Sheng]

OK let me put this way. Push hands can be be whatever, but it original purpose to let practitioners to develop skills. Wrestling and any other kind of derivative of push hands are neither free fighting nor traditional training method, it's more like a modern sport.

Traditional taiji fight is about maiming an opponent. It means anything goes. As any martial arts taiji has its own "game". The problem is not many people in the modern world aware or knowledgeable enough to go beyond push hands.

Good point, not many in taiji these days realize that applications to things like (扇通背) (shan4 tong1 bei4) "Fan Through the Back", can break an elbow (you should see the look on students faces when I tell them some of the Dao applications). Once was at a seminar with Dr. John Painter and he talked about many missing the point of push hands and how things like "Competition push hands" are completely missing the point and ruining push hands training. Truth be known, I agree with him. If someone takes the time to look at the applications to many of the postures in taijiquan they are brutal, many for maiming the other guy.

The push hands I have trained and do is trained in various levels; stationary, moving, 3 step, 1 step, following, free style. And at higher levels (free style) you get into applications However it is more to using the applications properly, not forcing or muscling it. It is, like I said, kind of like Aikido Randori, and like Randori, it is still not fighting.

It is through, relaxation and "lightness" ,if you allow me to quote the OP, that you apply taijiquan and it is push hands training that gets you to better understand how this 'relaxation' or 'lightness' (if you will) works for the proper application of taijiquan that so many miss these days and instead go for quicker to learn, more 'powerful looking', more energy intensive, methods like those in Sanda

 

[Zeny]

I don't agree with xue sheng on many things, but i completely agree with the above post. taijiquan prides itself as a gentleman's art, and emphasizes relaxation, sensitivity, lightness, neutralization etc. if a person wants 'powerful looking' moves, there are other more suitable arts out there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You are right, we do not agree on many things, and I have to say I feel the term "gentleman's art" it is pure ego and arrogance.

Taijiquan is taijiquan and there are things in it that can be incredibly powerful and they may even look powerful, but the difference is in the execution.

 

[mograph]

Push hands can be be whatever, but it original purpose to let practitioners to develop skills. Wrestling and any other kind of derivative of push hands are neither free fighting nor traditional training method, it's more like a modern sport.

Traditional taiji fight is about maiming an opponent. It means anything goes. As any martial arts taiji has its own "game". The problem is not many people in the modern world aware or knowledgeable enough to go beyond push hands.

Yes. I think that regarding tai chi, modern students are in a hurry in two ways:

1. ... to get competitive with push hands. After they learn a bit of push hands, they want to test its efficacy and test themselves. So they come up with competitions. Maybe that would be fine if the goal of the competitions were to express push hands principles best, but those competitions would probably not be very exciting, and it would be hard to measure skill level ("Red sash was more subtle! Point to red!" ). So we have modern PH competitions that resemble wrestling.

2. ... to test tai chi in an existing sphere, such as in the ring. But as you wrote, tai chi is about maiming and injuring people, and (for example) breaking arms, as Xue Sheng wrote. But that can't be tested legally, so tai chi gets a reputation for being useless. Add to this the likelihood that tai chi people aren't likely to get into bar fights, and again: it gets the reputation for being useless.

(Some should note that I'm not saying that tai chi is bad*ss because it aims to break elbows and knees; our joints (for example) are pretty fragile when hit from some angles. Otherwise, ring fighting wouldn't have a lot of the injury-preventing rules that it does, right?)

... so students don't go beyond push hands. Add to this the likelihood that more tai chi teachers learn from teachers who don't go beyond push hands, and the art suffers, yes?

 

[Xue Sheng]

2. ... to test tai chi in an existing sphere, such as in the ring. But as you wrote, tai chi is about maiming and injuring people, and (for example) breaking arms, as Xue Sheng wrote. But that can't be tested legally,

It can't be.....oops...NOW you tell me .

(Some should note that I'm not saying that tai chi is bad*ss because it aims to break elbows and knees; our joints (for example) are pretty fragile when hit from some angles. Otherwise, ring fighting wouldn't have a lot of the injury-preventing rules that it does, right?)

... so students don't go beyond push hands. Add to this the likelihood that more tai chi teachers learn from teachers who don't go beyond push hands, and the art suffers, yes?

I agree with your post. But I should add there are applications that are less violent in nature, that are joint locks and strikes. However, many do not want to train those, nor should they be forced too. Manny do not want to be taught anything but form and they have their reasons, be that health, fitness, or moving mediation. And again, I do not think they should be forced to learn otherwise. Frankly that is the future of Taijiquan, of that I have no doubt. The only thing on the entire topic that does annoy me is those that get upset or angry when someone does know, or wish to train or teach the MA/SD of it.

 

[mograph]

The only thing on the entire topic that does annoy me is those that get upset or angry when someone does know, or wish to train or teach the MA/SD of it.

Yes. I've met a number of students who bristled at the idea of learning "martial tai chi." Blech.

 

[ChenAn]

(Some should note that I'm not saying that tai chi is bad*ss because it aims to break elbows and knees; our joints (for example) are pretty fragile when hit from some angles. Otherwise, ring fighting wouldn't have a lot of the injury-preventing rules that it does, right?)

Not quite. Yes ring could be a good test of skill, but only in sports. The problem is that taiji is so deadly, the problem it was never designed as sport /competition. Many CMA evolved around occasional "lei tai" to boost prestige or stand for school reputation. It was a public business which require students/income and so on. In contrast, taiji was family art, and kept pretty much secrete until Yang Luchan. In case of Chen family until beginning of 20th century.

I would dare to compare taiji to Roman gladiators. They train with great concern of the safely to avoid the injury. But when they fight anything go. Since in modern time "mortal combat" is not common, so the art usage never being tested - just get passed from one generation to another. Yes, it does deteriorate but yet if accurately passed can retain it's potential.

I can't for all taiji method but in my line for example there is a proper way of eye gouging and "whole nine yard" surrounding that process. Not really sport friendly but when anything goes then anything goes