Less-pain conditioning

[JowGaWolf]

As you know, most martial arts teach you how to do conditioning. I just wanna know, is there any other way to do conditioning but lesser the pain?
Because whenever I started conditioning, I felt so much pain.

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If you are talking about iron body bone conditioning then the answer is yes. There are ways to do conditioning where you aren't killing yourself. The way that I recommend is the way that I was taught and the way the my school trains. The goal is only have pain where it's slightly uncomfortable and to continue until you start feeling the beginning of a bruise. Once you get to that point then stop. If you condition until you have big bruises then it will take longer to heal and it will affect the training by taking longer to see results.

This is the tapping method. This can apply to conditioning the knuckles where a person will start with punching something soft and gradually punching a slightly harder surface.

In general if you are feeling too much pain, it means that you are going at your conditioning to hard. Don't try to condition your body with the same intensity of someone who has been conditioning their body for years. You have to take baby steps.

As far as conditioning for exercise. Things like cardio and muscle endurance. The only cure for that type of pain is to know your limits and "suck it up."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not to be that guy, but muscle soreness after activity is not caused by lactic acid build up. Exercise physiologists have proven so relatively recently. Lactic acid is almost immediately sent to the liver where it is converted to pyruvate (don't quote me on the exact chemical; it could be glycogen, but I'm almost certain it isn't without looking it up). During activity, lactic acid will accumulate and cause "the burn" but it doesn't pool in the muscles like it was thought to. Soreness (or more accurately delayed onset muscle soreness DOMS) is due to the damage caused by exercise and the chemical mediators during the healing process/inflammatory response.

This means that while a proper cool down is still beneficial, it won't cut down on soreness like and more importantly for the reasons we were told it will.

Sorry, I can't get my sports medicine voices out of my head.

Posts like these are why I love this site so damn much. I learn how much I don't know.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is the only way you will do any conditioning without pain.

unless you get it in your eyes

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So what you're trying to say is that my body haven't adapt for taking hits?

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Yes. It takes a while for your body to adapt to this. While it's adapting, even a few hits will leave you sore. Once you're used to it, you'll get a lot less sore.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not to be that guy, but muscle soreness after activity is not caused by lactic acid build up. Exercise physiologists have proven so relatively recently. Lactic acid is almost immediately sent to the liver where it is converted to pyruvate (don't quote me on the exact chemical; it could be glycogen, but I'm almost certain it isn't without looking it up). During activity, lactic acid will accumulate and cause "the burn" but it doesn't pool in the muscles like it was thought to. Soreness (or more accurately delayed onset muscle soreness DOMS) is due to the damage caused by exercise and the chemical mediators during the healing process/inflammatory response.

This means that while a proper cool down is still beneficial, it won't cut down on soreness like and more importantly for the reasons we were told it will.

Sorry, I can't get my sports medicine voices out of my head.

Thanks for that info. Does that also explain the hypoxic soreness from things like running? That's where I'd heard the lactic acid build-up was, and that it was a difference process than the micro-damage from things like lifting. Have they now figured out it's the same process in both cases?

 

[JR 137]

Thanks for that info. Does that also explain the hypoxic soreness from things like running? That's where I'd heard the lactic acid build-up was, and that it was a difference process than the micro-damage from things like lifting. Have they now figured out it's the same process in both cases?

By hypoxic soreness do you mean while you're running? I haven't heard the term "hypoxic soreness" used before, but it's probably what I was taught as oxygen debt. If that's the case, then the soreness/burning while running (be it sprinting uphill or distance running) is lactic acid build up IMO. Lactic acid is a waste product of a few metabolic processes, and if I recall correctly there's higher amounts of it in anaerobic respiration (where you can't metabolize oxygen quickly enough). Lactic acid does in fact build up, but relatively speaking of gets out of the muscles pretty quickly. The harder and-or longer you work, the more it builds up, as it can only get out so fast. If you do too much it (along with other chemical mediators) will block nerve signals. This is partially why it's nearly impossible to keep going and we reach muscle failure; the body is protecting itself from too much damage.

Long story short, lactic acid will build up during exercise, but it won't linger for hours or even days. The soreness "a little while" afterwards (let's just say half hour for giggles) is the inflammatory response. Remember, you are actually damaging muscles every time you exercise. Chemical mediators such as bradykinin are known to cause pain.

And thanks for the trip down graduate exercise physiology class lane. Haven't had to think about some of these terms nor spelling some it it in about a decade. It's good to brush up on it! Hopefully I didn't butcher the details; I'm going by memory.

 

[JR 137]

Forgot to mention in my last post...

There are several different metabolic processes that occur during exercise. Muscles will use different ones for energy (technically speaking, cellular respiration), depending on the demand placed on them. Glycolysis, fermentation, Krebs Cycle, and so forth are used at different times, depending on factors such as intensity, available amounts of oxygen and/or water, the ability to recover (perhaps endurance is a better word), and on and on. It's not as simple as "which process is used during distance running?" But lactic acid is a waste product of pretty much all of those (and more) processes. That lactic acid does accumulate quicker than it gets out of the cells, causing the burn felt during exercise, be it short and intense exercise or long and sustained exercise. But again, it doesn't stay there very long after exercising. Cooling down and stretching won't get the excess lactic acid out; it'll be out shortly afterward if you abruptly stop. Not that there's no benefit to cool down, but getting lactic acid out isn't really one of them.

 

[Ademadis]

With regards to conditioning, do you have to treat all the areas of your body differently?

Ie: You build up resistance on your chest and ribs will you still suffer badly from hits on the legs and shoulders etc.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By hypoxic soreness do you mean while you're running? I haven't heard the term "hypoxic soreness" used before, but it's probably what I was taught as oxygen debt. If that's the case, then the soreness/burning while running (be it sprinting uphill or distance running) is lactic acid build up IMO. Lactic acid is a waste product of a few metabolic processes, and if I recall correctly there's higher amounts of it in anaerobic respiration (where you can't metabolize oxygen quickly enough). Lactic acid does in fact build up, but relatively speaking of gets out of the muscles pretty quickly. The harder and-or longer you work, the more it builds up, as it can only get out so fast. If you do too much it (along with other chemical mediators) will block nerve signals. This is partially why it's nearly impossible to keep going and we reach muscle failure; the body is protecting itself from too much damage.

Long story short, lactic acid will build up during exercise, but it won't linger for hours or even days. The soreness "a little while" afterwards (let's just say half hour for giggles) is the inflammatory response. Remember, you are actually damaging muscles every time you exercise. Chemical mediators such as bradykinin are known to cause pain.

And thanks for the trip down graduate exercise physiology class lane. Haven't had to think about some of these terms nor spelling some it it in about a decade. It's good to brush up on it! Hopefully I didn't butcher the details; I'm going by memory.

And thank you for updating me. I keep up a bit with info in these areas, but put more of my ongoing learning into psychology, so often miss things like this.

So, the original ache during exercise like running when you are out of breath (and, yes, that's what I meant by "hypoxic" - same as "oxygen debt") is actually the lactic acid build-up, but that's not the mechanism of the longer-term pain from those same runs. It may be time for me to dig again, because I'm not sure I understand the mechanism for that soreness. It doesn't seem it would be the same mechanism as overworked muscles. I can give a great example of this. I used to suffer from exercise-induced asthma. During my brown belt self-defense test (about 100 attacks, all told), I had an attack. Mine were never severe, but did restrict my oxygen intake somewhat. About halfway through, my legs were rubbery (there's that nerve signal you were talking about), and there was a point I simply wasn't sure I'd be able to stand any longer, and seriously considered asking to defend the rest of the attacks from a kneeling position. I don't think my muscles were worked any harder than during any given intense class, but my quads and glutes were sore for several days. Is that pain the result of the lactic acid damaging the muscles?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With regards to conditioning, do you have to treat all the areas of your body differently?

Ie: You build up resistance on your chest and ribs will you still suffer badly from hits on the legs and shoulders etc.

Yes. Watch early UFC bouts featuring Muay Thai fighters. Everyone in the octagon has some tempering and could take hits, but most hadn't tempered their legs to take those annoying thigh kicks the Muay Thai fighters use. If the opponent hadn't tempered his legs, he was in trouble pretty quickly if some of those kicks landed. If the opponent also had Muay Thai experience (so, had tempered his thighs), the kicks were far less effective.

 

[Ademadis]

Yes. Watch early UFC bouts featuring Muay Thai fighters. Everyone in the octagon has some tempering and could take hits, but most hadn't tempered their legs to take those annoying thigh kicks the Muay Thai fighters use. If the opponent hadn't tempered his legs, he was in trouble pretty quickly if some of those kicks landed. If the opponent also had Muay Thai experience (so, had tempered his thighs), the kicks were far less effective.

Awesome thanks , last question is there anyway to condition yourself to take hits while you're only by yourself?
I'm pretty good with regards to stamina and fatigue but I've never conditioned myself to take hits.

Do you have any links to exercises etc?

Thanks!

 

[JR 137]

And thank you for updating me. I keep up a bit with info in these areas, but put more of my ongoing learning into psychology, so often miss things like this.

So, the original ache during exercise like running when you are out of breath (and, yes, that's what I meant by "hypoxic" - same as "oxygen debt") is actually the lactic acid build-up, but that's not the mechanism of the longer-term pain from those same runs. It may be time for me to dig again, because I'm not sure I understand the mechanism for that soreness. It doesn't seem it would be the same mechanism as overworked muscles. I can give a great example of this. I used to suffer from exercise-induced asthma. During my brown belt self-defense test (about 100 attacks, all told), I had an attack. Mine were never severe, but did restrict my oxygen intake somewhat. About halfway through, my legs were rubbery (there's that nerve signal you were talking about), and there was a point I simply wasn't sure I'd be able to stand any longer, and seriously considered asking to defend the rest of the attacks from a kneeling position. I don't think my muscles were worked any harder than during any given intense class, but my quads and glutes were sore for several days. Is that pain the result of the lactic acid damaging the muscles?

Lactic acid doesn't damage the muscles (that I know of). Whenever you exercise, be it strength training, running, etc., you cause microscopic tears in your muscles. The body heals those tears through the inflammatory response, and overdoes the healing so the muscles are stronger and therefore less susceptible to tearing. In other words, the muscles grow back bigger and stronger. The more damage, the more the inflammation. The more sore a person is, typically the more damage they did. Some of the chemical mediators involved in the inflammatory response will block motor nerve response. The more I think about it, I'm not sure if lactic acid itself will block some nerve response or if its presence will trigger other chemical mediators to do so. Either way, when its there, it happens.

IMO, in all likelihood you did in fact work your legs harder than normal, but your attention was focused more pressing issues at the time such as your asthma symptoms.

Lactic acid didn't damage your muscles. I don't think it's strong enough of an acid to do that in the way of something like pouring battery acid on your hands and letting it sit there and eat away at them.

Compared to aerobic and anaerobic respiration (which is what we're discussing when talking about when discussing oxygen debt), the inflammatory response is 1000x more difficult and extensive. One of my undergrad classes easily spent over half a semester on it. If it was a med school class, I'm sure it would've been even more in depth.

So in short, the muscle burn you feel during exercise and maybe a little while (not hours) afterward is lactic acid. The pain and/or soreness you feel afterward is from the chemical mediators in the inflammatory response. They may feel the same or very similar, but they're not caused by the same thing.

The burning feeling in the lungs (asthmatics and non-asthmatics)? No idea. I don't recall ever studying it. I did however feel my lungs burning the other night during an intense sparring session. Add to that my CI recently polyurethaned the floor, and it was a tough night. I spent the hour and a half class sparring with 2 yondans, 1 sandan, and 2 nidans. And my legs were pretty sore the next day or two. Didn't seem like we did a lot of leg stuff at the time, then I remembered the extra rounds where we weren't allowed to use our hands and the squats we were doing when I was the odd man out during a few rounds.

 

[oftheherd1]

And thank you for updating me. I keep up a bit with info in these areas, but put more of my ongoing learning into psychology, so often miss things like this.

So, the original ache during exercise like running when you are out of breath (and, yes, that's what I meant by "hypoxic" - same as "oxygen debt") is actually the lactic acid build-up, but that's not the mechanism of the longer-term pain from those same runs. It may be time for me to dig again, because I'm not sure I understand the mechanism for that soreness. It doesn't seem it would be the same mechanism as overworked muscles. I can give a great example of this. I used to suffer from exercise-induced asthma. During my brown belt self-defense test (about 100 attacks, all told), I had an attack. Mine were never severe, but did restrict my oxygen intake somewhat. About halfway through, my legs were rubbery (there's that nerve signal you were talking about), and there was a point I simply wasn't sure I'd be able to stand any longer, and seriously considered asking to defend the rest of the attacks from a kneeling position. I don't think my muscles were worked any harder than during any given intense class, but my quads and glutes were sore for several days. Is that pain the result of the lactic acid damaging the muscles?

Interesting reads on all this. But I wonder if your rubbery legs, and your forcing them to continue working as needed for the techniques, didn't cause you to overwork them without realizing it, causing more damage than what would have occurred otherwise?

 

[Buka]

For you guys over thirty -

Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of room at each side. With a 5-lb potato sack in each hand, extend your arms straight out from your sides and hold them there as long as you can.

Over the weeks, try to reach a full minute, and then relax. Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit longer. After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato sacks. As the months pass, eventually try to get to where you can lift a 50-lb potato sack in each hand and hold your arms straight for more than thirty seconds.

After you feel confident at that level, put an actual potato in each of these sacks. Or maybe a grape.

 

[JR 137]

For you guys over thirty -

Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of room at each side. With a 5-lb potato sack in each hand, extend your arms straight out from your sides and hold them there as long as you can.

Over the weeks, try to reach a full minute, and then relax. Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit longer. After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato sacks. As the months pass, eventually try to get to where you can lift a 50-lb potato sack in each hand and hold your arms straight for more than thirty seconds.

After you feel confident at that level, put an actual potato in each of these sacks. Or maybe a grape.

I love it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Awesome thanks , last question is there anyway to condition yourself to take hits while you're only by yourself?
I'm pretty good with regards to stamina and fatigue but I've never conditioned myself to take hits.

Do you have any links to exercises etc?

Thanks!

I haven't ever tried specific tempering by myself, though I'd think there are some traditional exercises from Shaolin temple or someplace like that where they did a lot of tempering. If your art includes breakfalls, practicing them will help some (any impact will temper the body to some extent), though not the "feather falls".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting reads on all this. But I wonder if your rubbery legs, and your forcing them to continue working as needed for the techniques, didn't cause you to overwork them without realizing it, causing more damage than what would have occurred otherwise?

That's a possibility. Perhaps when those nerve impulses are blocked, we have to use the muscles drastically differently. If that's true, some parts of the muscle (or perhaps entire muscle groups) would be used in a way they aren't used to, and would be overworked. Either that, or there's some false damage signal going on that activates the inflammatory response where healing isn't needed. We already know that can happen, because it happens under psychological stress, though to a much smaller degree than what would be necessary here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lactic acid doesn't damage the muscles (that I know of). Whenever you exercise, be it strength training, running, etc., you cause microscopic tears in your muscles. The body heals those tears through the inflammatory response, and overdoes the healing so the muscles are stronger and therefore less susceptible to tearing. In other words, the muscles grow back bigger and stronger. The more damage, the more the inflammation. The more sore a person is, typically the more damage they did. Some of the chemical mediators involved in the inflammatory response will block motor nerve response. The more I think about it, I'm not sure if lactic acid itself will block some nerve response or if its presence will trigger other chemical mediators to do so. Either way, when its there, it happens.

IMO, in all likelihood you did in fact work your legs harder than normal, but your attention was focused more pressing issues at the time such as your asthma symptoms.

Lactic acid didn't damage your muscles. I don't think it's strong enough of an acid to do that in the way of something like pouring battery acid on your hands and letting it sit there and eat away at them.

Compared to aerobic and anaerobic respiration (which is what we're discussing when talking about when discussing oxygen debt), the inflammatory response is 1000x more difficult and extensive. One of my undergrad classes easily spent over half a semester on it. If it was a med school class, I'm sure it would've been even more in depth.

So in short, the muscle burn you feel during exercise and maybe a little while (not hours) afterward is lactic acid. The pain and/or soreness you feel afterward is from the chemical mediators in the inflammatory response. They may feel the same or very similar, but they're not caused by the same thing.

The burning feeling in the lungs (asthmatics and non-asthmatics)? No idea. I don't recall ever studying it. I did however feel my lungs burning the other night during an intense sparring session. Add to that my CI recently polyurethaned the floor, and it was a tough night. I spent the hour and a half class sparring with 2 yondans, 1 sandan, and 2 nidans. And my legs were pretty sore the next day or two. Didn't seem like we did a lot of leg stuff at the time, then I remembered the extra rounds where we weren't allowed to use our hands and the squats we were doing when I was the odd man out during a few rounds.

Again, thanks for the good info!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For you guys over thirty -

Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of room at each side. With a 5-lb potato sack in each hand, extend your arms straight out from your sides and hold them there as long as you can.

Over the weeks, try to reach a full minute, and then relax. Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit longer. After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato sacks. As the months pass, eventually try to get to where you can lift a 50-lb potato sack in each hand and hold your arms straight for more than thirty seconds.

After you feel confident at that level, put an actual potato in each of these sacks. Or maybe a grape.

I was going to comment that we have actual weights these days, Buka. Then you hit me with the punch line. Timing is everything.

 

[Tgace]

IMO...when it comes to exercise/physical conditioning...if you are not confronting the mental aspect of pushing through the pain, you are missing out on 85% of the benefit of the training.

I'm talking about the "this hurts I want to quit" mental aspect of conditioning, not "I think I tore a tendon" or "I'm significantly damaging myself" pain. There is a big difference.

I just completed a 17 mile in one day "hump" through mountainous terrain (including summiting a peak) . I did it for both physical and mental development. While the physical training aspect was undeniable, the most benefit I received from it is that I know I can override my brains messages to "give up!" and just keep on going. Of course I have military experience and knew that I already had some stress-inoculation on the topic, but I like to see if I still "have it" on occasion.