legendary fight between masters...

[TSDTexan]

TSDTexan, you would be better off writing articles. As seems to be the pattern with the long twisting histories you write, you obviously know the answer to the question you ask but are waiting to contradict it with something questionable.

The thing is I'm not that into the history except as a guide to applying the art. So continuing a historical debate in a thread whose point you refuse to give is a non starter. Suffice to say that I disagree about Funakoshi's beliefs on sparring, about the relevance of the jutsu/do distinction in GF's teaching and that there is ever a useful conclusion to be drawn from a challenge match. And please don't put words in my mouth. I never once suggested that Funakoshi was any sort of Saint.

Please forgive me, if thats what you think I did. I don't think I put words into your mouth.
But if your perception is that I did, I apologize.
Many do not realize that their perception is not reality, but their opinion about reality. And for them it IS reality.
If you think I put words in your mouth, I am truly sorry. And I deeply mean that.
This is actually a pet peeve of my own.

 

[ballen0351]

Give it a rest dude. you and I both know there are "Masters" out there that can't fight. Are you ignorant?

Sure there are a few, your claim was many. By contrast by the time some masters are old enough to claim the title master they can't even walk up stairs anymore without help. It doesn't make them less knowledgeable

 

[ballen0351]

Kata training is simply not enough to develop proper fighting technique,

Only for the folks that just don't get it......

 

[Tames D]

Sure there are a few, your claim was many. By contrast by the time some masters are old enough to claim the title master they can't even walk up stairs anymore without help. It doesn't make them less knowledgeable

Knowledge and fighting ability are two different things. I was commenting on a video of two guys that were having a problem fighting their way out of a paper bag. Not sure what your point is?

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's an interesting little factoid: MMA has one of the worst fight records of any method, as is documented over and over on video and televised events such as UFC and other venues. I mean, the record is HORRIBLE. Fully 50% of people who enter a fight after training in an MMA gym and using those methods LOSE THE FIGHT!! We see it in the videos all the time. Those guys who lose the fight, they trained in MMA!! that little clip earlier in this thread with Tito Ortiz going down, he trained MMA! That's a pretty piss-poor example on display there. Who would train in such a pathetic method with such a poor record? Literally, I may as well flip a coin to decide the outcome. The odds are the same. I mean sure, just about exactly 50% win their fights so they must be doing SOMETHING right, but my god, look at the numbers, 50% still lose! MMA does NOTHING to improve your odds above purely random chance of winning a fight. It's well documented, on video!

 

[ballen0351]

Knowledge and fighting ability are two different things. I was commenting on a video of two guys that were having a problem fighting their way out of a paper bag. Not sure what your point is?

No you said "MANY" masters can't fight (yet you won't name these many). Knowledge is what makes you a master. A master may get too old to fight it doesn't make them less of a master.

 

[TSDTexan]

Here's an interesting little factoid: MMA has one of the worst fight records of any method, as is documented over and over on video and televised events such as UFC and other venues. I mean, the record is HORRIBLE. Fully 50% of people who enter a fight after training in an MMA gym and using those methods LOSE THE FIGHT!! We see it in the videos all the time. Those guys who lose the fight, they trained in MMA!! that little clip earlier in this thread with Tito Ortiz going down, he trained MMA! That's a pretty piss-poor example on display there. Who would train in such a pathetic method with such a poor record? Literally, I may as well flip a coin to decide the outcome. The odds are the same. I mean sure, just about exactly 50% win their fights so they must be doing SOMETHING right, but my god, look at the numbers, 50% still lose! MMA does NOTHING to improve your odds above purely random chance of winning a fight. It's well documented, on video!

Ouch... but what about the double left hook double knockouts of Boxing... MMA has to be batting at higher averages then 50% against things like boxing... where both fighters can lose simultaneously. And NO Tyler Brian and Shaun Parker Knockout of each other doesn't count.

double knockouts have got to be like flipping a coin.. and the coin saying "Aww Flip this! I am gonna land on EDGE... like a BOSS"

 

[Tames D]

No you said "MANY" masters can't fight (yet you won't name these many). Knowledge is what makes you a master. A master may get too old to fight it doesn't make them less of a master.

I only care about fighting ability. That what matters when someone is getting in your face. the "Master" thing is a joke.

 

[elder999]

View attachment 19478

That's not the book. It's another.

 

[elder999]

More to the point, I believe the fight was between a Wu Taiji guy and a Tibetan white crane guy. I can understand why someone at Hanzou's level of comprehension would call what he sees "windmilling", which speaks volumes. I'm no longer inclined to offer him an education and he is welcome to believe what he wants. My comment here is really just to let Elder know, it's not shaolin, it's Tibetan crane. Funny thing is, it's the Taiji guy who is doing the "windmilling" < snicker snicker > but some folks (and I'm not referring to Elder here) wouldn't know the difference anyway. But that's not important. And anyone who thinks that what is going on is "windmilling" deserves to be snickered at.

Thanks, I knew all that-I was just using it as an example....there's similar movements in quite a few other things.....thanks, though.

 

[ballen0351]

I only care about fighting ability. That what matters when someone is getting in your face. the "Master" thing is a joke.

I have no doubt that's all you care about

 

[Flying Crane]

double knockouts have got to be like flipping a coin.. and the coin saying "Aww Flip this! I am gonna land on EDGE... like a BOSS"

OH MY GAWD, DOUBLE LOSS!!!!!!! ITS EVEN WORSE THAN I THOUGHT!!! Two MMA guys enter a fight, and NEITHER ONE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN!!!! How does MMA even survive??!!

 

[TSDTexan]

"When I first came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan [Funakoshi] who was teaching Karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard of his name! Upon guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up a position of kake-kumite and said, ‘what will you do?'”
This quote from Motobu was written in “Ryukyu Kenpo Karate-jutsu Tatsujin Motobu Choki Seiden” by Nakata Mizuhiko (translated by Joe Swift) and as you already see, their first meeting was everything but peaceful.
How did the meeting end?
The quote continues:
“He [Funakoshi] was hesitant and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi (a wrist throw common to jujutsu and aikido) at which time he fell to the ground with a large thud. He got up, his face red and said ‘once more.’ And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.”


I believe Patrick McCarthy might be a source for a proper translation of the book in question.

#37. When I came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan who was teaching karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard his name. Upon the guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up the position of kake-kumite and said “What will you do?” He was hesitant, and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi at which he fell to the ground with a thud. He got up, his face red, and said “once more” so we took up the position of kake-kumite again. And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.
COLLECTION OF SAYINGS BY MOTOBU CHOKI By Nakata Mizuhiko, Overseen by Marukawa, 1978 Translation © 2001 by Joe Swift

I dont see Funakoshi in the quote.
Also, I dont think of Funakoshi as a braggart who teaches kids. But even if we allow for youngster to mean mid 20s..
Given who taught Funakoshi back in Okinawa... I find it hard to believe that Motobu never heard of Him in 4 or 5 decades, of traveling in the same circles.

 

[TSDTexan]

TSDTexan, you would be better off writing articles. As seems to be the pattern with the long twisting histories you write, you obviously know the answer to the question you ask but are waiting to contradict it with something questionable.

The thing is I'm not that into the history except as a guide to applying the art. So continuing a historical debate in a thread whose point you refuse to give is a non starter. Suffice to say that I disagree about Funakoshi's beliefs on sparring, about the relevance of the jutsu/do distinction in GF's teaching and that there is ever a useful conclusion to be drawn from a challenge match. And please don't put words in my mouth. I never once suggested that Funakoshi was any sort of Saint.

But I did ask you who "sent" Funakoshi... Because you asserted that he was sent.
And you said something about him teaching "Karate of good character" that was not fighting Karate.
This notion actually messes with my head.
A "Te" that was not even about empty hand self defense? That He taught?
What you present....here... Is something that doesn't exactly line up with the historical events, or his teaching.

 

[elder999]

#37. When I came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan who was teaching karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard his name. Upon the guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up the position of kake-kumite and said “What will you do?” He was hesitant, and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi at which he fell to the ground with a thud. He got up, his face red, and said “once more” so we took up the position of kake-kumite again. And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.
COLLECTION OF SAYINGS BY MOTOBU CHOKI By Nakata Mizuhiko, Overseen by Marukawa, 1978 Translation © 2001 by Joe Swift

I dont see Funakoshi in the quote.
Also, I dont think of Funakoshi as a braggart who teaches kids. But even if we allow for youngster to mean mid 20s..
Given who taught Funakoshi back in Okinawa... I find it hard to believe that Motobu never heard of Him in 4 or 5 decades, of traveling in the same circles.

All of which says LOADS about how little you understand about the culture, and what these men did know and think about each other. Not a big deal-"cultural ignorance" is a pretty common shortcoming for all of us, in one way or another.

It's Funakoshi of whom he speaks, and none other-believe what you like.

 

[TSDTexan]

All of which says LOADS about how little you understand about the culture, and what these men did know and think about each other. Not a big deal-"cultural ignorance" is a pretty common shortcoming for all of us, in one way or another.

It's Funakoshi of whom he speaks, and none other-believe what you like.

Ok.

 

[Tames D]

I have no doubt that's all you care about

It's a good thing you carry a gun. LOL

 

[DaveB]

Hanzou, how many clips of liddell did you have to go through to find the one where most of his shots were on target?

Do you not think it might be easier to land shots when your opponent is standing still doing nothing as in the Liddell gif?

Lastly the difference between unskilled windmilling and what happens in the kung fu gif is that the unskilled look away. Your kungfu fighters kept eyes on the opponent even while fists were flying hence a number of blows were deflected.

At the end of the gif what I see are repeated hammer fist strikes, but if you are just glancing and judging you will miss it.

Your comment about shoalin is interesting. It suggests a dogmatic view of what constitutes effective martial arts. Yet MMA grows every time someone comes along who can do something different, so why so many of its devotees have such limited ideas is beyond me.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, how many clips of liddell did you have to go through to find the one where most of his shots were on target?

Honestly it was the first one I found. Liddell is known for being a pretty effective striker in MMA. I can find more clips if you like. It's not like they're hard to find.

Do you not think it might be easier to land shots when your opponent is standing still doing nothing as in the Liddell gif?

Ortiz was cornered against the cage, so he had nowhere to go at that point. It happens in Boxing and MMA rather frequently. I do hope you're not trying to argue that those kung fu guys are more effective strikers than a modern boxer or MMA fighter. If you put Liddell in that ring with one of those guys, he would maul them.

Lastly the difference between unskilled windmilling and what happens in the kung fu gif is that the unskilled look away. Your kungfu fighters kept eyes on the opponent even while fists were flying hence a number of blows were deflected.

There's nothing skilled about windmilling. Which is why you don't see trained fighters who make their living punching people ever use that technique. It's a sure-fire way to get yourself knocked out by a straight punch to the face.

At the end of the gif what I see are repeated hammer fist strikes, but if you are just glancing and judging you will miss it.

I'll remember that next time I see a child windmilling in a fight; He's not doing the windmill, he's doing the Repeated hammer fist punch!

Let's also not forget that the child-like windmilling wasn't the only example of terrible fighting ability showcased in that kung fu masters video.

 

[Hanzou]

Here's another comparison for good measure;




It's a good thing that guy avoided those deadly hammer fists!