Learning to roll.....

[Chat Noir]

To cut to the chase, I really stink at this. This is my third class, and I went to my lesson this afternoon (damn hot too, BTW. It's in the 90's and the "air conditioning" can barely be felt).

Anyway, I show up and naturally he wants me to roll backward and try to roll forward. I got into position but when it came to the kick off, I hesitated. I stink forward and backwards. He tells me I have to relax and just let it happen. Go with it. But frankly it's scary and intimidating. How does one get past this fear and roll with ease?

He asked at the end of class if I really wanted to do Judo and reminded me that it involves break falls and rolling and that I would have to learn to get beyond the fear. I assured him that I do but in the back of my mind, I'm thinking "how am I going to do this?" I study the arts that have been a life time obsession for me and don't want my fear to keep me from progressing in Judo. Any advice?


Laura

 

[myusername]

Try starting lower, say on your knees and gradually build up confidence before rolling from standing.

 

[jks9199]

Three classes isn't a long time to overcome a lifetime of conditioning that falling down isn't fun. I've got problems with your instructor questioning your commitment so quickly; it's not very supportive.

There are several threads on rolling around MT; you can find plenty of tips there. Personally, I find that I can't explain it well in text; it's very much a "gotta do" thing. You may want to try using a little more padding than the mats in the dojo.

 

[Gruenewald]

At my dojo they used to teach kids to somersault first, or build from there since most kids knew how to somersault already. So, you could just start with that to begin with (from your knees, just lean forward, tuck your chin in tight and push forward with your toes lightly). Eventually try to do that from one side (landing on one shoulder), etc. etc. building your way up from there. Also training on more heavily padded mats might help. To do it on a plane you know is absolutely 100% safe and gain confidence there would help you overcome your fear.

Alternatively you could just dive into it, just go. Personally I think this is the easiest way to do it, since once you do it once or twice you'll probably be fine from there (improving it over time).

 

[K-man]

Let's face it. If you are going to learn judu, or for that matter aikido or jujutsu, you have to learn to fall safely and to roll. With little kids I start with a thick foam mattress. The kids have a ball and get used to the motion. Then we move to the mats, maybe even double thickness on rare occasions. If a practitioner has risen to instructor level and cannot help you with rolling, I would consider looking elsewhere. Sorry, questioning your desire to learn judo, because he hasn't been able to teach you to roll like a veteran in three lessons, raises questions in my mind about his ability to teach, not about your ability to roll!

 

[Slipper]

I'm going to assume that falls/rolls are the same in both Judo and Aikido. I had a horrible mental block with front rolls that has taken some time *cough*years*cough* to overcome. I'm only now starting to do them with some ease. There were times when I doubted I could continue MA because of my issue with front rolls. I'm grateful to have had a patient Sensei and encouraging training partners. Interestingly, I've been able to teach people how to front roll in spite of having difficulty with it myself. I believe that's because every single person in our dojo has shown me "their" way. I've learned there are a bunch of "ways" with the end result always the same.

In my experience, guys seem to pick up much faster on this than the ladies do.

Please don't get discouraged. Sometimes, it just takes time. Stressing over it will make things worse. What helped me with back rolls was to sit down and simply roll backwards (without doing a back roll). There was something about the repetitive feel of the roll on my back that made this much easier to accomplish.

Big soft mats were my salvation on practicing front rolls. It helped me get past a lot of my fear of being hurt.

Good luck.

 

[Manny]

You are not alone in this, I know how to break a fall but roll is very dificult and scary thing to me, some months ago I got a hard blow where the back meets the butt doing front rollin from standing position, I felt a hard hit in my a..... when landing and this leaved me with a bruise very large in my coxis.

Rolling is always cost me a lot and definetively don't like it but it's something we must learn.

Manny

 

[Stac3y]

I've had to learn this relatively quickly. I'm still not fond of it (especially dive rolls), but I've become fairly competent. We start with side and back breakfalls, and do many, many reps, starting in a squat and then moving on to standing. I find the breakfalls much easier than the dive rolls. I thought I'd never get those right. They are SCARY at first, and the way the instructor was teaching them just didn't work for me. So I kept searching for a different method, and a fellow student finally gave me one that worked for me. I don't think your teacher should be questioning your commitment, but should be looking for a better way to teach you.

 

[lklawson]

Well, a topic comes back up. Cool.

Yes, if you're going to do any Asian grappling art, you're gonna learn how to do roll-falls. Learn it. Love it. It's actually kinda fun, truthfully.

After having practiced Asian grappling arts for... um... let's just say "a long time now" I've concluded that the biggest reason for roll falls is tradition.

In Aikido many of the two-person kata end in a projected "throw" which is convenient to roll-fall out of. Some in Judo too. But I've never seen anyone in Randori or Shiai take a roll-fall. Back-falls? Yea. Side-falls? All the time. Front-falls? Seldom but every once in a while. But a roll-fall during actual resistance sparring? Seems to be more rare than an honest politician.

The closest I've seen is when uke takes a hip-toss of some sort (such as seoinage) and goes tail over tea kettle. In that case the fall that uke takes looks kinda sorta almost like a roll-fall where uke just "stays down" and doesn't flow the momentum back up (can't, really).

Another theory is that only the first half/two-thirds of the roll-fall are the important part (safe falling). The fall-forward-and-end-up-on-your-back part. The roll-on-up is just a convenient and easy way to get back up again. If that's the reason then I think that it provides a false feedback and rolling back up is ultimately a negative for training.

I think I'll talk to Bob and Mike about this next Judo session.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[pgsmith]

Another two cents ...
The only way to become comfortable with anything is through familiarity. Practice, practice, and more practice will enable you to gain skill in whatever you are practicing, be it kicking, punching, throws, or falling. If the only time you are practicing is when you are in class, then you aren't going to overcome your problems very quickly. When I first started learning rolls many years ago, I learned by practicing at home. In class, my instructor would explain how it was done, and would tell me what I was doing wrong. At home, I would move stuff out of the way so I had a large enough carpeted area, and I'd practice from my knees. The carpeting was soft enough that I wouldn't injure myself, but hard enough that I could definitely feel wherever I thumped instead of rolling smoothly. I tried to practice some every day, and it didn't take long at all until I could roll easily in class.

I agree Kirk, rolling isn't very useful for randori. However, it becomes more important if you are practicing resistance sparring with weapons. Being able to roll back up to your feet when your opponent pulls a knife or sword after throwing you becomes extremely important!

 

[KELLYG]

Learning how to roll is tough but once you have it it will always be with you. I have seen people use the large balls akimi balls I think that is what they are called. Drape your self across the top and push yourself over this will allow you to feel the roll. The rest is just confidence and practice. I have actually use the front roll and side fall in real life and instead of getting hurt, I suffered no more than injured pride.

 

[l_uk3y]

I know the feeling. Even after approx 2 years of Hapkido. I'm more then happy to be thrown around like a ragdoll. But Cat rolls and backwards rolls still cause me grief. Ive never in my life been able to roll over backwards (I think its a fear of landing on my neck). Whilst I feel comfortable going forwards, I have it in my mind that by leaping into it as opposed to just ducking and rolling that I will land bad and do damage.

Its a real mind job.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It is all in the mind.
I already knew some basic rolls from my earlier modern jujutsu training, but in ninpo there are more and more advanced ways of rolling, from any position in any direction.

After having learned the theory a couple of times, I rented the dojo a coupl of times on my own dime, and spent an hour and a half each time on just rolling. It can be really fun once you break down the mental barriers inside your mind. Because really, that is where it is at.

Now for a couple of practical tips: when rolling forward, step out with one foot, bow down and set your hands in a T pattern on the floor, with the hand of the forward foot side being the top of the T. Make your arm round and roll over your arm / shoulder. The foot that was your back foot touches your butt and is the foot that you rise with.

For rolling backward, step back, and sit down by bending the back leg. Keep that leg bent. Roll backward while swinging the other leg over the opposite shoulder (the side of which the leg was bent). With some practise, you will go round without a problem. The bent leg will also move with your body, and you should be able to end up in a kneeling position with that knee touching the ground, and your other leg with the foot flat on the floor. You roll over your shoulder, not your neck.

I hope this makes some kind of sense. The only way to learn it is by doing it. A lot. You will get better, because your body will find the most efficient way of doing it if you just repeat it enough times. And in the beginning you may be sore, stiff or get vertigo, but that will pass and eventually you'll roll without having to think about it.

 

[Stac3y]

Ugh. I'm pretty decent with dive rolls, but yesterday I had a brain cramp and got dropped right on my head from a kneeling fireman's throw. I think I might be an inch shorter this morning than I was yesterday morning.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, a topic comes back up. Cool.

Yes, if you're going to do any Asian grappling art, you're gonna learn how to do roll-falls. Learn it. Love it. It's actually kinda fun, truthfully.

After having practiced Asian grappling arts for... um... let's just say "a long time now" I've concluded that the biggest reason for roll falls is tradition.

In Aikido many of the two-person kata end in a projected "throw" which is convenient to roll-fall out of. Some in Judo too. But I've never seen anyone in Randori or Shiai take a roll-fall. Back-falls? Yea. Side-falls? All the time. Front-falls? Seldom but every once in a while. But a roll-fall during actual resistance sparring? Seems to be more rare than an honest politician.

The closest I've seen is when uke takes a hip-toss of some sort (such as seoinage) and goes tail over tea kettle. In that case the fall that uke takes looks kinda sorta almost like a roll-fall where uke just "stays down" and doesn't flow the momentum back up (can't, really).

Another theory is that only the first half/two-thirds of the roll-fall are the important part (safe falling). The fall-forward-and-end-up-on-your-back part. The roll-on-up is just a convenient and easy way to get back up again. If that's the reason then I think that it provides a false feedback and rolling back up is ultimately a negative for training.

I think I'll talk to Bob and Mike about this next Judo session.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kirk,

Within rolls is a lesson though, it actually improves your ability to throw and project others.

You learn how to get rounded and go with it instead of fighting a throw after you are broken. No you hardly ever get to roll out of a throw, but you do trip and if you watch the vid i posted from our man's promotion test, watch the headlock defense that is a roll.

I do a nasty forward rolling takedown where I capture the enemy's knee as I roll as well.

There are reasons for rolling in armed combat as well.
In Bravo Two Zero (And I knew someone who is familiar with the story from another source) McNabb describes a Brit Operative who was being followed by 3 IRA Dickers. They shoved him and he rolled with it. As he was in the halfway point (where you can see behind you) he saw that they were pulling weapons, so he pulled his Hi-Power as he came up and did what SAS/14 Int guys are known for, giving people 3rd and 4th eyes.

We use this for a hard shove from behind, unarmed, with deployment of a kinfe or a pistol. We use a backroll the same way.

For the OP, get a swissball, hug it and use it as a rolling aid.
I stole it from a Mike Swain video and I use it to get my kids class used to rolling.

Good luck, keep at it and try to relax. It's ok to be cautious but once you go hesitation hurts and can kill in combat.

 

[lklawson]

Well, I spoke to Mike and Bob, who've been doing Judo longer than most people I know have been alive, and I got the expected answers.

The roll-back-up just doesn't happen in Randori or Shiai. Their justification of it followed along the expected lines of:

• Back in JuJitsu/projection throws.
• If you trip
• If pushed from behind

So no surprises there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tiberius]

Just do it slowly the best you can and improve from there. Try doing it outside the class too.

 

[Shin71]

Start from a lower position, like on your knees or on your haunches. you have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run.

 

[skeksi]

I agree, definitely start from a lower position. When I practice backward rolls, the first few I do each day are still from a squat until I 'remember' how it goes and feel more comfortable. After being absent for many months I was again scared of back rolls, so my teacher guided me and sort of pushed me over. I felt more confident about doing it on my own then.

 

[Necro]

in my jujitsu class and im sure most others they generally try to get you to do it standing first if you can't then onto one knee, personally i find the forward rolls simple compared to the backwards ones.