Learn Karate in "Three Or Four" Years?

[jobo]

Been gone doing real world productivity for a while. Got back and noted this in the alerts.

I originally heard about the 10,000 hour thing from Bob Rea, judo 6th dan, and a M.S. in Physical Education. It came into the public in Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers, in which he's talking repeatedly about studies done by Anders Ericsson. So, I did a bit of research on it, and it appears that a lot of people just want to say that a lot (i.e. 10,000 hours, give or take) of practice isn't necessary. I noted in passing that nearly all of the people who are trying to say the rule is B.S. are trying to sell something, give a method to shorten the time drastically. In other words, selling shortcuts. Another way to say, selling snake oil. You believe whatever you want, Jobo. The comment about the older gymnastic folks is off target and illogical, bodies break down.. that's a totally different physiological process.

its bogus, for a number of reasons, most especially, your failing to specify what exactly takes 10,000 hours, ie what skill, takes that amount of practise and to what level.

only a few have the genetics to be a top level sportsman, it might take a lot of practise to get there or it may not, it doesn't take,10,000 hours to learn to run, or long jump, most people have that skill cracked by the time they are 6 or so, the time spent is building fitness not motor skills, but if you haven't got the genetics, you can spend half a million hours and it will make no difference, you are not going to the Olympics .

motor skills are built and added to as you progress, there is a lot of carry over from one activerty to another, once you have developed balance reactions, hand eye/ foot co ordination and agility, then those can easily be reprogrammed, to another sport, you don't have to go back and start your 10, thousand hours again just to learn karate, all those countless hours i spent playing football as a kid count to my total,, if i can pull a fast moving foot ball out of the air, control it, dodge a,foot up studs out tackle, side step someone else and smash the ball in the back of the net, i can dodge a karate kick, side step and kick him in the knee, its super easy, to apply the already learnt motor patterns,

i was amazed in my last class, to find i was the only one who could run backwards, how do you get to be an,adult and not learn to do that?

 

[Mext1983]

How come someone can't run backwards? This is just so easy! Step one - run backwards, that all you need to know.

 

[Charlemagne]

Actually it's not. Skills are learned by the neural growth in the brain for both muscle memory and comprehension. The time it takes for synaptic growth is kinda set by biology and evolution. There are no short cuts. Hours in, skills out.

Well, there is no muscle memory, but certainly the number of repetitions/trials is a major factor in learning any motor skill. In addition, the motor learning literature is consistent that distributed practice rather than mass practice is going to lead to better retention and transfer of learning. In other words, practicing with high frequency over time, rather than bunching up practice in a short period of time.

 

[hoshin1600]

Well, there is no muscle memory, but certainly the number of repetitions/trials is a major factor in learning any motor skill. In addition, the motor learning literature is consistent that distributed practice rather than mass practice is going to lead to better retention and transfer of learning. In other words, practicing with high frequency over time, rather than bunching up practice in a short period of time.

i had to go re read the posts i was responding to. this thread is a little old.
so yeah there is no actual muscle memory within the muscle itself but the word memory usually would allude to a function of the brain.
and your 100% correct about distributed practice. which is consistent with what the OP wrote that Itosu said "2 hours a day of practice". i am not sure what the number would be of repetitions but there is the law of diminishing returns that i think applies.

which BTW that bunching up of repetitions was the entire premise of "the karate kid" movie. he did major reps in a short period of time in an attempt to match the cobra kai black belts. kind of puts a dent in Hollywood logic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i had to go re read the posts i was responding to. this thread is a little old.
so yeah there is no actual muscle memory within the muscle itself but the word memory usually would allude to a function of the brain.
and your 100% correct about distributed practice. which is consistent with what the OP wrote that Itosu said "2 hours a day of practice". i am not sure what the number would be of repetitions but there is the law of diminishing returns that i think applies.

which BTW that bunching up of repetitions was the entire premise of "the karate kid" movie. he did major reps in a short period of time in an attempt to match the cobra kai black belts. kind of puts a dent in Hollywood logic.

I'd have to dig in the research, but I don't know what it shows about the difference between distributing the reps over a few days (Karate Kid) versus many months (Cobra Kai). The 12-week fight prep they do at the gym where @drop bear trains seems to reinforce the idea of being able to compress more than most of us do, and still get good results. He and I talked through the hours, and the folks in that program compress 2-3 years (a bit less, maybe, depending how you figure it) of hobbyist training time into those 12 weeks.

 

[jobo]

Well, there is no muscle memory, but certainly the number of repetitions/trials is a major factor in learning any motor skill. In addition, the motor learning literature is consistent that distributed practice rather than mass practice is going to lead to better retention and transfer of learning. In other words, practicing with high frequency over time, rather than bunching up practice in a short period of time.

much of this discussion has been corrupted by people insisting ma consists of fine motor skill and take up to a 10, 000 hours to lean and pass to muscle memory, the truth is that the vast majority of the vast majority of ma consist of gross motor skills, and these gross motor skills are generaly slight adaptations of gross motor skills already learnt and committed to memory. Certainly any one who has played competative sport involving hand eye,foot eye co ordination has already developed the gross motor skills that form the foundation of ma and these are already in the muscle memory.

it really shouldn't take that many reps to adapt the existing gross motor skills and commit to memory

 

[Charlemagne]

I'd have to dig in the research, but I don't know what it shows about the difference between distributing the reps over a few days (Karate Kid) versus many months (Cobra Kai). The 12-week fight prep they do at the gym where @drop bear trains seems to reinforce the idea of being able to compress more than most of us do, and still get good results. He and I talked through the hours, and the folks in that program compress 2-3 years (a bit less, maybe, depending how you figure it) of hobbyist training time into those 12 weeks.

You can get good results in the short term, but not in the long term. In the motor learning and sport psych literature it shows up pretty consistently. Put simply, if one does a whole bunch of reps in a very short time (mass practice) then they will see a rapid rise in short term ability. However, those abilities will not be maintained (retention of learning) and they will not be able to be expressed well in different scenarios or used in ways that are not closely related to how they were trained (transfer of learning). Whereas if one does those same number of reps, spread over a longer time period (distributed practice) one will see better retention and transfer of those skills.

It's akin to cramming for an exam in the few days prior rather than if one had done the same amount of studying spread out over the semester.

 

[jobo]

You can get good results in the short term, but not in the long term. In the motor learning and sport psych literature it shows up pretty consistently. Put simply, if one does a whole bunch of reps in a very short time (mass practice) then they will see a rapid rise in short term ability. However, those abilities will not be maintained (retention of learning) and they will not be able to be expressed well in different scenarios or used in ways that are not closely related to how they were trained (transfer of learning). Whereas if one does those same number of reps, spread over a longer time period (distributed practice) one will see better retention and transfer of those skills.

It's akin to cramming for an exam in the few days prior rather than if one had done the same amount of studying spread out over the semester.

you are making that lot up, the retention of muscle memory is not related to how general memory works.

i last rode a bike when i was 15, aged 48 i had no trouble at all riding a bike, that 30 years with out reps

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can get good results in the short term, but not in the long term. In the motor learning and sport psych literature it shows up pretty consistently. Put simply, if one does a whole bunch of reps in a very short time (mass practice) then they will see a rapid rise in short term ability. However, those abilities will not be maintained (retention of learning) and they will not be able to be expressed well in different scenarios or used in ways that are not closely related to how they were trained (transfer of learning). Whereas if one does those same number of reps, spread over a longer time period (distributed practice) one will see better retention and transfer of those skills.

It's akin to cramming for an exam in the few days prior rather than if one had done the same amount of studying spread out over the semester.

Thanks. What does the literature show about the length of distribution? Technically, the 12-week fight program is distributed learning, since they are revisiting the material over a 12-week program. Is there a significant long-term learning benefit to that same learning being less concentrated, perhaps stretched over a year or more?

 

[hoshin1600]

I'd have to dig in the research, but I don't know what it shows about the difference between distributing the reps over a few days (Karate Kid) versus many months (Cobra Kai). The 12-week fight prep they do at the gym where @drop bear trains seems to reinforce the idea of being able to compress more than most of us do, and still get good results. He and I talked through the hours, and the folks in that program compress 2-3 years (a bit less, maybe, depending how you figure it) of hobbyist training time into those 12 weeks.

i think initial intensive training would be great. as an analogy i like to say the brain has tiny micro plant root systems in the brain. each detail of a skill is its own root system. initial intense training would be like growing much more of these roots then average but then they need to be fed and thickened and grown. time in training thickens the roots. time off , they wither and die. so the challenge is to feed and grow them in size and thickness faster then they can wither and die off. intensive training in like laying out more seed. but they can die off quick too.
intensive training allows you to absorb more details and compound these details into a solid working model. something that would take a really long time to do otherwise. but you can forget it all very fast if you then dont follow up with that 2 hours a day training.

just my take on it anyway

 

[jobo]

i think initial intensive training would be great. as an analogy i like to say the brain has tiny micro plant root systems in the brain. each detail of a skill is its own root system. initial intense training would be like growing much more of these roots then average but then they need to be fed and thickened and grown. time in training thickens the roots. time off , they wither and die. so the challenge is to feed and grow them in size and thickness faster then they can wither and die off. intensive training in like laying out more seed. but they can die off quick too.
intensive training allows you to absorb more details and compound these details into a solid working model. something that would take a really long time to do otherwise. but you can forget it all very fast if you then dont follow up with that 2 hours a day training.

just my take on it anyway

the brain doesn't have a root system! Are you mixing it up with teeth?

 

[hoshin1600]

the brain doesn't have a root system! Are you mixing it up with teeth?

i dont even know why i bother responding to your posts.
re read my post....the key word i wrote is..... ANALOGY.
the definition of analogy
noun, plural analogies.
1.
a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparisonmay be based:
the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2.
similarity or comparability:
I see no analogy between your problem and mine.


for those who are grammatically challenged here is a photo of the brains Neural network system

 

[jobo]

i dont even know why i bother responding to your posts.
re read my post....the key word i wrote is..... ANALOGY.
the definition of analogy
noun, plural analogies.
1.
a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparisonmay be based:
the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2.
similarity or comparability:
I see no analogy between your problem and mine.


for those who are grammatically challenged here is a photo of the brains Neural network system
View attachment 21163

but there is no similarity between the brain and a root system to make an analogy out of

 

[hoshin1600]

but there is no similarity between the brain and a root system to make an analogy out of

dude now your just being a troll.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

dude now your just being a troll.

You're just noticing this now?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but there is no similarity between the brain and a root system to make an analogy out of

Except for the similarity he used in his analogy.

 

[jobo]

Except for the similarity he used in his analogy.

but there are absolutely no similarities between the brain and a root system to make an analogy????? .

just making a comparison of features that are not in anyway similar is a metaphor not an analogy

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but there are absolutely no similarities between the brain and a root system to make an analogy????? .

just making a comparison of features that are not in anyway similar is a metaphor not an analogy

Yeah. Except for the similarity used in the analogy.

 

[jobo]

Yeah. Except for the similarity used in the analogy.

but that "similarity" , is comparing things that are not in any way similar. If i say my TV set is like a beef burger, that not an analogy, beef burgers and tv sets share no feature similar enough to make an analogy out of.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but that "similarity" , is comparing things that are not in any way similar. If i say my TV set is like a beef burger, that not an analogy, beef burgers and tv sets share no feature similar enough to make an analogy out of.

A TV set can be like a beef burger, in that both can get hot. Both can smoke (if one is cooked, and the other is damaged). Both can be warm. Etc.

Just because there are no obvious similarities, that doesn't mean there aren't any available for analogies.

On top of all that, you're the only one trying to make TV:beef burger analgous to brain:root system.

Oh, and dendrites do resemble root hairs, as does the branching of neuron pathways resembles the branching of a root system. You completely ignored that similarity between brains and root system. And, of course, the similarity used in the original analogy.