Learn Karate in "Three Or Four" Years?

[JR 137]

Insight into what it was like training under Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu) by the student who inherited his belt and uniform, thereby making him Miyagi’s true successor...

Meitoku Yagi

Spoiler alert... it didn’t take a couple 3-4 years to learn Miyagi’s Goju Ryu Karate.

 

[punisher73]

In the original quote, it says to "understand" karate, it takes about 3-4 years. On average, it takes a student that long to reach blackbelt. In many schools, the blackbelt does NOT represent expertise, but that you are ready to start learning. Itosu's quote would be very much in line with that thought.

 

[punisher73]

Actually it's not. Skills are learned by the neural growth in the brain for both muscle memory and comprehension. The time it takes for synaptic growth is kinda set by biology and evolution. There are no short cuts. Hours in, skills out.

It still requires hard work and practice, but incorporating visualization does help cut down on the reps required. There have been a couple of experiments to support this idea. But, the overall idea of being dedicated and not an instant expert still holds true.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Would you prefer to be told straight out that you are an idiot or do you want a more polite round the houses way? Generally many people seem to read into things people write that aren't actually there, I suggest this is what you are doing. People read other's posts from their own perspective as well as mood and way of thinking which is usually completely different from the way the writer meant it.

No. I wanted discussion and I was met with passive aggeessive snarkiness. And then some guy accused me of having a "narrative" for not adhering to his convoluted reading of what I had posted.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

OP started a previous thread about how martial arts shouldn't take years to learn than posts a quote from a master saying it takes years to learn.

When I said it shouldn't take years to learn, I was referring to people who think it takes decades to learn a martial art.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Nope. It doesn't.

Learn to put which foot where during class, doing a kata? Sure.

Having mastered the entire skill set of a master of karate, so that the movement skills are so internalized as to automatically flow, without thought, at the reflex level?

Not in 3, 4 years. For some, not in 30 to 40 years, depending on their time spent training.

Expertise? Sure. MMastery? No. I think what is happening here is one of Gerry's favorite things, a "definitional debate," eh?

Could be it.

30 - 40 years?

I hate how people fetishize the mystical woo-woo. It doesn't take decades to learn a martial art. It simply doesn't.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

And again, according to you it shouldn't take years. Choose a position.

This is tiring. In my previous thread, I had lamented the fact that bullshido fetishizers believe it takes decades to learn a martial art. I believe a person can become perfectly knowledgeable in karate in a few years and I've always believed this.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Learn is a relative term

At what point can you say you have learnt Karate.

The quote states 'understand'
Again this is a very loose term and doesn't mean mastery.

In many schools it take about 4 years to achieve 1st degree. At 1st degree we can say we understand our art but it is far from Mastery or any sort of high level

Well, I don't subscribe to this nonsense. Sorry. There's nothing magical abour karate; it's a system of fighting that can be mastered in several years.

 

[Finlay]

What nonsense?

I asked to define what 'learn' means

I said 'understand' is different from 'mastery'

I said that 3-4 year is a common time frame to black belt level.

I understand that your whole purpose on this board is to get attention and try to make the longest thread possible, if you did such things in an intelligent thoughtful way you may actually get better responses from people.

Instead you read others posts ignore the points and/or questions and call it nonsense.

Even looking around, very few people in very few schools or systems reach anything more than 1st degree in a few years.

There has to be an understanding between knowledge and skill.

Even though most systems can be taught in 3-4 years and then an understanding (knowledge) is reached.

After that it is experience and refinement to reach skill.

There is no woo-woo as you put it. This is a process found in many walks of life not just Martial Arts. The more experience you have, the more things you have come across and dealt with.

By the way, how long have you been studying Martial arts?

 

[RTKDCMB]

What nonsense?

I asked to define what 'learn' means

I said 'understand' is different from 'mastery'

I said that 3-4 year is a common time frame to black belt level.

I understand that your whole purpose on this board is to get attention and try to make the longest thread possible, if you did such things in an intelligent thoughtful way you may actually get better responses from people.

Instead you read others posts ignore the points and/or questions and call it nonsense.

Even looking around, very few people in very few schools or systems reach anything more than 1st degree in a few years.

There has to be an understanding between knowledge and skill.

Even though most systems can be taught in 3-4 years and then an understanding (knowledge) is reached.

After that it is experience and refinement to reach skill.

There is no woo-woo as you put it. This is a process found in many walks of life not just Martial Arts. The more experience you have, the more things you have come across and dealt with.

By the way, how long have you been studying Martial arts?

But he's an instant expert. Can't you tell?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

30 - 40 years?

I hate how people fetishize the mystical woo-woo. It doesn't take decades to learn a martial art. It simply doesn't.

Define “learn a martial art”.

Here may be the core disagreement. If I want to teach someone the core techniques and tactics to some competence, that will take probably 3 years-ish if they are reasonably fit and spend 3-5 hours per week. For them to learn all of the techniques to competence, add at least 3 more years. For them to have a real grasp of the concepts so they aren’t dependent upon the techniques, maybe 3 more. Deep comprehension and something approaching mastery of the principles? Many more years.

 

[DaveB]

My narrative?

The 10 Precepts of Karate was written to convince Japanese school educators to allow karate to be taught to the students. The idea was that they would learn in a few years, and then teach the younger kids, until eventually every Japanese kid knew karate.

Precept 10 proves my point:


If karate should be introduced beginning in the elementary schools, then we will produce many men each capable of defeating ten assailants. I further believe this can be done by having all students at the Okinawa Teachers' College practice karate. In this way, after graduation, they can teach at the elementary schools at which they have been taught. I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation and our military. It is my hope you will seriously consider my suggestion.

Except that what Itosu wanted to teach kids wasn't really karate.

Itosu was inspired by the tendency in British public schools to drill school children in marching. Hence the line drills of endless kihon techniques that characterised Shotokan.

The point was to make the youth fit and obedient for military service and give them a basic template in karare so that those interested could seek out a master for proper instruction in the art later.

So 4 years of basic training to prepare you to learn the art in a program emphasising fitness strength coordination and obedience.
Meanwhile the first Goju ryu students had to spend 10 years on Sanchin kata before learning anything else.

I actually agree with your core premise, learning self defence shouldn't require you to be old before you can use the art. But your not really going to find much supporting evidence in antiquity. There is some, but not a lot.

 

[Tez3]

This is tiring. In my previous thread, I had lamented the fact that bullshido fetishizers believe it takes decades to learn a martial art. I believe a person can become perfectly knowledgeable in karate in a few years and I've always believed this.

Well good for you, that's your thoughts so you can allow others theirs. You are also generalising as 'karate' is a generic word, there's quite a few different styles which varying syllabuses, there's also different instructors who may teach more than others or less than others so really apart from your attraction to the word fetish, which is a bit worrying you aren't saying very much. It depends on how long a student has to train, a young person with plenty of money and lots of time can train for hours everyday, an older person with a job and family may only be able to take an hour or so a week to train which might not happen if other things crop up. So many variables, so many different people and situations make your post invalid. That you don't like people disagreeing with you means I think you have a tendency to fetishise posting on this site.

Itosu was inspired by the tendency in British public schools to drill school children in marching.

Public schools being the very expensive private schools for rich kids here.

 

[drop bear]

Well, I don't subscribe to this nonsense. Sorry. There's nothing magical abour karate; it's a system of fighting that can be mastered in several years.

Ok here is a mate of mine Guy Thrupp. Took him 19 years to win a title.

National title is 19 years in the making

 

[DaveB]

No. I wanted discussion and I was met with passive aggeessive snarkiness. And then some guy accused me of having a "narrative" for not adhering to his convoluted reading of what I had posted.

Because there is nothing convoluted about understanding what is actually being said.

If you train something every day for 4 years you are putting far more hours in than most hobbyists do over the same period.

That's not rocket science...

And yes, you have a narrative. "Karate doesn't take that long to learn, because I and Itosu said so".

 

[jobo]

Well, I don't subscribe to this nonsense. Sorry. There's nothing magical abour karate; it's a system of fighting that can be mastered in several years.

yes i agree, people are using what,seems,a,very variable defintion of "" MASTERED".

the 30to 40 years level that some are,claiming is clearly a made up number based on nothing at all.

karate is not that complicated a movement pattern that it can't be mastered in a few years, you don't get other sports claiming that the best gymnasts or the best tennis player need to have been practising for 40 years, its frankly ludicrous to claim such. Most of them have won their medal and been retired for a,decade or two. Any one want to claim that a 50 year old gymnast is better than a 20 year old gymnast, if so, show me one in an Olympic team

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes i agree, people are using what,seems,a,very variable defintion of "" MASTERED".

the 30to 40 years level that some are,claiming is clearly a made up number based on nothing at all.

karate is not that complicated a movement pattern that it can't be mastered in a few years, you don't get other sports claiming that the best gymnasts or the best tennis player need to have been practising for 40 years, its frankly ludicrous to claim such. Most of them have won their medal and been retired for a,decade or two. Any one want to claim that a 50 year old gymnast is better than a 20 year old gymnast, if so, show me one in an Olympic team

Part of the problem is - as you rightly pointed out - the variability in the usage/definition of “master”. Some argue (based on their definition) that it is unattainable. Others, that it takes decades. And so forth. I suspect that you and I use different (but not terribly different) definitions, based on the years you suggest.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Any one want to claim that a 50 year old gymnast is better than a 20 year old gymnast, if so, show me one in an Olympic team

This is a different issue. Some folks define mastery as a level of understanding, rather than physical competence. In that view, the 50-year-old coach probably has better mastery of the concepts than the 17-year-old medalist.

You also have to account for hours, rather than years. It may take a hobbyist at MA decades @ 3-5 hrs/wk) to achieve the mastery a dedicated athlete gains in a few years (@ 20-40+ hrs/wk).

 

[jobo]

This is a different issue. Some folks define mastery as a level of understanding, rather than physical competence. In that view, the 50-year-old coach probably has better mastery of the concepts than the 17-year-old medalist.

You also have to account for hours, rather than years. It may take a hobbyist at MA decades @ 3-5 hrs/wk) to achieve the mastery a dedicated athlete gains in a few years (@ 20-40+ hrs/wk).

well then at that point it splits, between karate as a fighting system and karate as an art form, you don't really need to " understand it to do it to a good standard, you just need the physical atributes AND the motor patterns just as you do with any other athletic activerty. To set it apart is a false hood.

after that you are getting into the zen( woo) element of enlightenment . And I'm not opposed to that as a concept or as a good thing to achieve, it has little to do with karate as a fighting system which is the point the op is making.

if could just as easily be flower arranging they are doing to reach a higher state of consciousness, !

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well then at that point it splits, between karate as a fighting system and karate as an art form, you don't really need to " understand it to do it to a good standard, you just need the physical atributes AND the motor patterns just as you do with any other athletic activerty. To set it apart is a false hood.

after that you are getting into the zen( woo) element of enlightenment . And I'm not opposed to that as a concept or as a good thing to achieve, it has little to do with karate as a fighting system which is the point the op is making.

if could just as easily be flower arranging they are doing to reach a higher state of consciousness, !

I think that is precisely the difference.