Laying Down

[Andrew Green]

Just a quick concern, do grapplers ever train with strikes like eye gauges or more of a maming attack?

Sure, grab some goggles and go nuts.

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

Sure, grab some goggles and go nuts.

Go for the nuts? lol. But is that a regular part of a grapplers training? Would a grappler say be caught off guard maybe by that kind of attack if they are say purely a grappler and not say a grappler/kenpoist?

 

[Andrew Green]

Go for the nuts? lol. But is that a regular part of a grapplers training? Would a grappler say be caught off guard maybe by that kind of attack if they are say purely a grappler and not say a grappler/kenpoist?

No, most don't train for it. Most train for fun, and that means not doing that sort of stuff cause it is not fun. Some do it occasionally and tend to discover that it doesn't turn the balance at all, the better guy gets the target, the other doesn't.

Then go back to doing things that are more fun.

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

C'mon, a little cup check is fun. Nothing says I got ya like the sound of a hollow cup

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'll agree to a point on the going for groin thing however........ While your grabbing and moving around to get the groin you'd better be careful of moving your limbs around. You just might find how out of position you are with a good grappler. :asian:

 

[MJS]

The guys I shared the drive with (diamond lane from OC to Torrance very important) were both blacks in kenpo cousins...German's TAI, and Kajukenbo. We frequently got together off line to not only refine our ground-fighting, but also to devise kenpo-based approaches to managing weapons and distance with grapplers...sort of a "to beat them, join them". The best we came up with was modifying kenpo weapons and universal movement patterns for offensive application from some of the superior positions. I.E., mount the guy and do first part of five swords when he swings...softens him a bit, making him more pliable for transitions to chokes.

Did any of you come up with anything on the defensive end?

Mike

 

[MJS]

One thing to keep in mind here, is that we can look at this subject from two different points of view: sport and street. With the ever increasing 'heat' from politicians, the do not do list seems to grow by the minute, compared to when MMA/NHB events first took place. Obviously on the street, biting, hits to the eye, etc. are all legal shots.

Another thing to take into consideration is not playing the other guys game. If its apparent to me that the person I'm facing is a better puncher, I'm certainly not going to risk trading shots with him. The Mo Smith and Mark Coleman fight comes to mind. Smith new enough defensive ground work to completely frustrate Coleman and eventually finish the fight standing.

So, back to application. I'm sure that there are many techniques in the system to address the initial entry by the grappler, the clinch, and once on the ground.

I'm still interested in hearing exactly what techniques people have tried.

Mike

 

[jfarnsworth]

I was successful with some of the limited submissions that I know. To that however I was able to fall back upon the skills that I had from my wrestling days. Although I will point out that I got beaten more times from my buddies students due to being "out of position". Collegiate wrestling positions and JJ grappling positions are slightly different animals. I like to test my skills when my friend alllows me in to play around with his students. We all have a good time. I'm outside the box and they find me fun to grapple with as do I.

Take off your belt. Find a good JJ school around your area. Pay for a lesson and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't. :asian:

 

[DavidCC]

Take off your belt. Find a good JJ school around your area. Pay for a lesson and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't. :asian:

That's what I did, and it was so much fun! and I learned a LOT! When it came to striking, it was like this (without too much detail): "when you are in this position, you can strike effectively. When you are in that position, you should not. If being struck in this position, you can transition to that position" That was about as deep as they got into it. It's all about position. If you are going to strike then you must still control your base & space or else you leave an opening and get taken out of position.


Kenpo techniques for being grabbed with your back against a wall might be easier to apply from the bottom than others.

 

[jfarnsworth]

UHHHH DUUUHHHH!!!!!

Wouldn't preach it if I didn't do it.

I actually just seen this post. I'm not quite sure how to take it. It appears to be quite sarcastic.

Oh, by the way

How did you do????????????

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I actually just seen this post. I'm not quite sure how to take it. It appears to be quite sarcastic.

Oh, by the way

How did you do????????????

A lot of guys try to hide their foibles. To Clyde's credit, he has posted video footage of himself not having a great day against a grappler on his web page. It's actually quite funny how they structured the commentary, and I think it speaks highly of him that he's willing to make it easy for people to find it doing the opposite of suppressing it. I'm not sure, but I think it's kenpoprofessor.com

Regards,

D.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just a quick concern, do grapplers ever train with strikes like eye gauges or more of a maming attack? I am not too well versed with grappling but in epak there are multitudes of maming and strikes that penetrate with precision i.e eye whips, ripping off someones balls, etc. With that in mind how does kenpo translate to grappling? is there usually an opening for such attacks in an optimum scenario?

The grapplers know how to rake eyes, too. However, longevity in the activity dictates that this sort of thing be kept to a minimum...how long would you stay with kenpo if you actually scratched the crap out of each others eyes in practice?

Rickson had a great reply for the "what if I...?" guys about the eyes. "Sure...go for my eyes. Maybe you'll get them; maybe you won't. Then, while you're sleeping off my choke-hold, it'll be my turn to scratch your eyes. How much success do you think you'll have at blocking it while you sleep?"

Regards,

Dave

PS -- "What if I poke him in the eye?" has been the karate answer to grapplers since Adam was in the garden. Do you really think that, sonehow, it hasn't been experienced, and contingencies put in place?

 

[Casey_Sutherland]

The grapplers know how to rake eyes, too. However, longevity in the activity dictates that this sort of thing be kept to a minimum...how long would you stay with kenpo if you actually scratched the crap out of each others eyes in practice

I agree. Don't take what I am saying the wrong way. But it is a valid argument even if it is one that has been around for a while. It's not just they eyes either. My only question is are grapplers necessarily trained to fight underhandedly or is it usually pure locks, holds and body positioning. I understand that most grapplers suppliment with other arts, yet at what extent do strikes come in

 

[Andrew Green]

I agree. Don't take what I am saying the wrong way. But it is a valid argument even if it is one that has been around for a while. It's not just they eyes either. My only question is are grapplers necessarily trained to fight underhandedly or is it usually pure locks, holds and body positioning. I understand that most grapplers suppliment with other arts, yet at what extent do strikes come in

Every grappler I've ever trained with has known a good number of dirty tricks, doesn't matter if it's submission, BJJ or Olympic style.

 

[Seabrook]

A lot of guys try to hide their foibles. To Clyde's credit, he has posted video footage of himself not having a great day against a grappler on his web page. It's actually quite funny how they structured the commentary, and I think it speaks highly of him that he's willing to make it easy for people to find it doing the opposite of suppressing it. I'm not sure, but I think it's kenpoprofessor.com

Regards,

D.

What's great about Clyde is this: yes, things didn't work as planned against the grappler he posted on his site. But, Clyde has also layed the smack down on many of grapplers, yet those aren't on his site.

A true warrior in my opinion.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[kenpohack]

To answer the fundamental question of whether kenpo techniques work on the ground, you must first consider how power is developed in kenpo. Most of our power comes from either rotational momentum, vertical momemtum (drop or marriage of gravity, or horizontal momentum (shuffle). How can you effectively apply these principles without a stable base? I'm no expert at kenpo or bjj, though I study both. I do know that trying to strike upward from a mounted position is suicide (you will certainly find yourself in an armbar if grappling with an experienced opponent). Striking while in someone's guard will likely yield the same result. If you mount someone or are on top in the knee-on-stomach postion, striking can be a viable option. Kenpo wasn't designed for use on the ground. IMHO, use kenpo for what it's best at...standing self-defense. For grappling, cross-train in bjj, after all, it's the best in the world on the ground. Using kenpo for grappling is akin to using a hammer to drive a screw. It may work some of the time, but more often than not it will only cause problems.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

To answer the fundamental question of whether kenpo techniques work on the ground, you must first consider how power is developed in kenpo. Most of our power comes from either rotational momentum, vertical momemtum (drop or marriage of gravity, or horizontal momentum (shuffle). How can you effectively apply these principles without a stable base? I'm no expert at kenpo or bjj, though I study both. I do know that trying to strike upward from a mounted position is suicide (you will certainly find yourself in an armbar if grappling with an experienced opponent). Striking while in someone's guard will likely yield the same result. If you mount someone or are on top in the knee-on-stomach postion, striking can be a viable option. Kenpo wasn't designed for use on the ground. IMHO, use kenpo for what it's best at...standing self-defense. For grappling, cross-train in bjj, after all, it's the best in the world on the ground. Using kenpo for grappling is akin to using a hammer to drive a screw. It may work some of the time, but more often than not it will only cause problems.

I noticed on your profile it says you're a Kenpo Orange belt, is this correct? If so, you have no business commenting on a system you know so very little about, you're not an expert as you so aptly pronounced.

DarK LorD

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

A lot of guys try to hide their foibles. To Clyde's credit, he has posted video footage of himself not having a great day against a grappler on his web page. It's actually quite funny how they structured the commentary, and I think it speaks highly of him that he's willing to make it easy for people to find it doing the opposite of suppressing it. I'm not sure, but I think it's kenpoprofessor.com

Regards,

D.

Hide foibles, it wasn't a foible, and in fact, it was a great day. I had already tapped a few of the advanced students and was grappling the instructor (a 6th JJJ). I finally ran out of gas and tapped out after almost 2 hours of going at it standup and groundwork, and what is shown is the last few minutes of the event. You should really get your information straight before posting Dave.

DarK LorD

 

[MJS]

To answer the fundamental question of whether kenpo techniques work on the ground, you must first consider how power is developed in kenpo. Most of our power comes from either rotational momentum, vertical momemtum (drop or marriage of gravity, or horizontal momentum (shuffle). How can you effectively apply these principles without a stable base? I'm no expert at kenpo or bjj, though I study both. I do know that trying to strike upward from a mounted position is suicide (you will certainly find yourself in an armbar if grappling with an experienced opponent). Striking while in someone's guard will likely yield the same result. If you mount someone or are on top in the knee-on-stomach postion, striking can be a viable option. Kenpo wasn't designed for use on the ground. IMHO, use kenpo for what it's best at...standing self-defense. For grappling, cross-train in bjj, after all, it's the best in the world on the ground. Using kenpo for grappling is akin to using a hammer to drive a screw. It may work some of the time, but more often than not it will only cause problems.

If we go back to my initial post I had said:

Its often said that Kenpo is not effective while on the ground. Not too long ago I had a chat with someone regarding applications of Kenpo techniques while grappling. I decided to apply some ideas/concepts while my training partner had me in the mounted position. Surprisingly, there were a number of them in which parts could be applied. Delayed Sword, Crossing Talon and Hooking Wings were a few that I found.

Has anyone else attempted the use of the techniques while on the ground?

Mike

Slight mods. will need to be made. As for the cross training, or as Clyde likes to call it, cross referencing ... those are both options as well. Of course, having someone who can guide you along and aid in this discovery is also very important. There are certain people here, who can attest to the fact that I had quite an issue with the grappling concept. Fortunately I came across someone who showed me the light!

Mike